Problems with Calvanism (507 views) (Closed for Posting) Subscribe   
  From:  seven7up   Jan-6 12:36 pm  
To:  ALL   (1 of 167)  
 
  773.1  
 
Before I begin on this topic, it should be known that I believe that had Christ not paid for our sins through the atonement, we would have not had access to the forgiving grace of God, and therefore could not have recieved salvation. We would have been hopelessly lost and unprofitable servants even if we tried our best for the rest of our lives. 
Even so, I believe that many Christians misunderstand the concept known as "predestination", and how it accompanies the "grace" of God. 

Jer. 1:5 "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations." 

God has a plan for each of us and knows what we will choose, but that does not mean that we do not choose for ourselves to do right or wrong. We can choose salvation, but that is only because God chose to make salvation possible for us to choose. (if that makes any sense) 

Scriptures such as .... 

1 Pet. 1: 2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God. 
Eph. 1: 5 having predestinated us unto the adoption of children. 
Rom. 8: 29 he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image. 

... signify to me that certain individuals, known as the elect, were placed in lives/situations upon the earth in which God knew they would hear the gospel, accept it, and build up the kingdom. God chose to place them (and everyone) in their respective places because God has a plan for each and every one of his children. 

That does not mean that God did the choosing for us. It simply means that God placed us in our respective places on the earth, allowing us to choose within the bounds that are set in our individual lives. God is no puppet master and we his puppets. 

....to be continued. 

 
  
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  From:  seven7up   Jan-6 12:43 pm  
To:  seven7up   (2 of 167)  
 
  773.2 in reply to 773.1  
 
I believe that mankind has true free will. Again reguarding predestination, God chose the elect to be raised in conditions whereby they would hear the gospel, accept it, and build up the kingdom. In no way does that mean that we have no free will. 
Also, many will hear the gospel and not accept it. Look at the parable Jesus gives in Matt. 22: 1-14 

Now look at the statement, "For many are called, but few are chosen." God chooses those who will be found worthy in the parable, but God didn't make them come to him in order to be purified by the Holy Spirit. They were chosen because they humbled themselves. 

Deut. 30: 19 therefore choose life. 
Josh. 24: 15 choose . . . whom ye will serve. 
Gen. 2: 16 Of every tree . . . thou mayest freely eat. 
Deut. 11: 27 blessing, if ye obey. 
1 Chr. 29: 9 with perfect heart they offered willingly to the Lord. 
1 Cor. 9: 17 if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward. 
1 Pet. 5: 2 feed the flock of God . . . not by constraint, but willingly. 
Lev. 1: 3 offer it of his own voluntary will. 
Prov. 1: 29 did not choose the fear of the Lord. 
Rom. 2: 6 render . . . according to his deeds. 
2 Cor. 5: 10 receive . . . according to that he hath done. 
Rev. 20: 12 dead were judged . . . according to their works. 

Gal 6: 7 Be not decieved; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. 

...to be continued 

 
  
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  From:  seven7up   Jan-6 12:57 pm  
To:  seven7up   (3 of 167)  
 
  773.3 in reply to 773.1  
 
Calvanism basically says that God decided to pick and choose some souls to save, while not choosing to save certain individuals. Those individuals who God decides not to save, will be utterly punished because God decided not to save them. If this were the case, I don't see why God wouldn't just make everyone worthy, and none would be lost. God loves all of his children and wants the best for each and every one of us right? 
2Pet. 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentence. See also 1 Timothy 2:3-4; 

We pray that God's will shall be done. Unfortunately, due to the choices of man, it is not. That is the result of free-agency, free-will, and moral choice. Without it, no one would suffer, but also true happiness could not be brought to pass. 

I believe Calvin was a false teacher. A teacher of false Christs. His doctrine makes a mockery of God and his teachings are the philosophies of men mingled with scripture. Unfortunately, he relied entirely too much on isolated parts of New Testament, which is dominated by one apostle. He pulled all of his doctrine from Paul. Even so, it is not that Paul was incorrect, it is simply that John Calvin and others don't understand what Paul was saying. 

This is what happens when people isolate and interpreted certain scriptures to a point that those disciples whom Christ taught himself would not recognize the doctrine they preach. In fact, a short study of the beliefs of early Christians would demonstrate this quite clearly. John Calvin himself recognized that the early Fathers did not believe as he did and I quote ... 

"For under the second head, where [the early Fathers] treat of Original Sin, they declare that free-will, though impaired in its powers and biased, is not however extinguished. I will not dispute about a name, but since they contend that liberty has by no means been extinguished, they certainly understand that the human will has still some power left to choose good . . . . Therefore, if we believe them, Original Sin has weakened us, so that the defect of our will is not pravity but weakness. For if the will were wholly depraved, its health would not only be impaired but lost until it were renewed. The latter, however, is uniformly the doctrine of Scripture. To omit innumerable passages where Paul discourses on the nature of the human race, he does not charge free-will with weakness, but declares all men to be useless, alienated from God, and enslaved to the tyranny of sin; so much so, that he says they are unfit to think a good thought. (Rom. 3:12; 2 Cor. 3:5)" John Calvin, in Dillenberger, ed., John Calvin: Selections from His Writings, 159. (It is less well-known that Martin Luther also taught this doctrine.) See Martin Luther, The Bondage of the Will, translated by Henry Cole (Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1976), especially 43-44, 70. 

So above, Calvin clearly goes against the beliefs of the early church Fathers and tries to use a couple passages from Paul to do it. However, I will demonstrate that he misuses Paul's statements. 

...to be continued. 

 
  
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  From:  seven7up   Jan-6 1:15 pm  
To:  seven7up   (4 of 167)  
 
  773.4 in reply to 773.1  
 
"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned" (1 Corinthians 2:14) 
It is true that the "natural man" does not recieve the things of the Spirit of God. However, man is more than flesh, it is also spirit. Job 32: 8 there is a spirit in man. 

Calvin's doctrine has a "plan of salvation" by which men, who are created by God in his image, are born on this earth with the disposition to sin. That is, the "sinful nature" of man inherited from Adam is not only of body but also of spirit. This point of view is that not only is man afflicted by the passions of the flesh, but our spirits alone are inherently incapable of any righteous act. 

The scriptures he cited do not say that, and Calvin pulls the wrong interpretation from Paul's words and does not include the entirety of scripture when composing this doctrine. The truth is that Christ's atonement automatically pays for the effects of Adam's fall that are beyond our individual control. We will be punished for our own sin, and not for Adam's transgression. Children are born in a state of innocence. At least according to Jesus, who told his disciples to let the children come to him, for "of such is the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 19:14) 

Man has, in fact, inherited a "fallen nature" which besets us with the animal passions of the "natural man". However, many Christians have neglected something... 

Men and women are made up of both a body (now mortal and corrupted) and a spirit. We have two natures. The first nature is that of our spirit which comes from God. Eccl. 12: 7 "the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." We are all a spiritual family both in heaven and earth, and God is the Father. (Eph. 3: 14-15) The second nature being that of the body which after the fall results in the "natural man". 

Consider this carefully, the Bible says that our spirits come from God, He is our Father. The Father of our spirits. Does something that is inherently evil come from God? 

Mal. 2: 10 Have we not all one father. 
Acts 17: 29 we are the offspring of God. 
Eph. 4: 6 One God and Father of all. 
Heb. 12: 9 be in subjection unto the Father of spirits. 

We as truth seekers must be searching for the answers to some of the most important questions in life which include: who we are, and where we come from. 

If the entirety of man's being and nature is completely unable to do any righteous act, why did Paul say, "For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts . . . ." (Romans 2:14-15) 

Paul said they were doing it "by nature". Does this contradict Paul's words in the verses Calvin uses to support his position. Of course not. This is the spiritual nature of man, not the carnal one, that Paul is referring to. Even people who have not heard the gospel can be good if they yield to their spiritual nature. This is clearly evident in the peoples of the world. Some Christians maintain a limited and distorted view on the gospel of Christ (and entire world view) because they do not fully acknowledge this. 

... to be continued. 

 
  
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  From:  seven7up   Jan-6 1:23 pm  
To:  seven7up   (5 of 167)  
 
  773.5 in reply to 773.3  
 
Paul spoke of the two natures of man and how they are in conflict. "For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would." (Galatians 5:17; cf. Romans 8:1-4) Peter spoke of "fleshly lusts, which war against the soul." (1 Peter 2:11) 
It is clear that Calvin's conclusions and interpretations are incorrect. How would Calvin account for the words of the apostles in these verses starting with Paul himself in three passages that support what I am saying. 

"work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" (Philippians 2:12) 

"Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee." (1 Timothy 4:16) 

It is not to be thought that I have already achieved all this. I have not yet reached perfection, but I press on, hoping to take hold of that for which Christ once took hold of me. My friends, I do not reckon myself to have got hold of it yet. All I can say is this: forgetting what is behind me, and reaching out for that which lies ahead, I press towards the goal to win the prize which is God's call to the life above, in Christ Jesus. (Philippians 3:12-14 NEB) 

So what am I saying? Simply that we must strive to keep God's commandment by using the blessing of free-will that God has given us. You can't sit back expecting God to make your choices for you. 

"give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall." (2 Peter 1:10) 

"They had once escaped the world's defilements through the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ; yet if they have entangled themselves in these all over again, and are mastered by them, their plight in the end is worse than before." (2 Peter 2:20 NEB) 

So the scriptures do indeed speak for themselves, if you understand the whole of them. Misinterpretations, twistings, isolation of passages, and confusion can be used by evil. Even Satan tried to use scripture to reach his goals. Look also at the scribes and pharisees. 

Now, your reaction to this may be to think that I do not give God and Christ enough credit for our salvation or something along these lines. That simply is not true and nothing could be more incorrect. I give you a quote from a great man. 

"The great plan of salvation is a theme which ought to occupy our strict attention, and be regarded as one of heaven's best gifts to mankind. ... Men not unfrequently forget that they are dependent upon heaven for every blessing which they are permitted to enjoy, and that for every opportunity granted them they are to give an account." 

I believe in the mercy, grace, and forgiveness of God. Yet Justice and Mercy must both be met. Some may fall from grace continue to accept the atonement into our lives by a continual process of repentence. 

Matt. 10: 22 (Matt. 24: 13) endureth to the end shall be saved. 

Heb. 12: 15 lest any man fail of the grace of God. 

Heb. 10: 26 sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge . . . no more sacrifice for sins. 

Gal. 5: 4 ye are fallen from grace. 
1 Tim. 1: 19 some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck. 
Heb. 6: 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance. 

In order to be forgiven, we must repent, confess, and forsake our sins. 

Ps. 32: 5 I acknowledged my sin . . . and thou forgavest. 
Luke 17: 3 if he repent, forgive him. 
2 Cor. 7: 10 godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation. 
Ezek. 16: 61 remember thy ways, and be ashamed. 
Ezek. 18: 30 Repent, and turn . . . from all your transgressions. 
Prov. 28: 13 whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy. 
Isa. 1: 16 put away the evil of your doings . . . cease to do evil. 

7up 

 
  
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  From:  seven7up   Jan-6 2:33 pm  
To:  seven7up   (6 of 167)  
 
  773.6 in reply to 773.5  
 
One historian wrote, "Whether they believed in the effect of original sin on the soul or not, Christians since the earliest times have maintained that human nature has elements of both good and evil, and hence people are capable of choosing either path. However, some theologians, notably the Reformer John Calvin and his followers, adopted the doctrine of "total depravity." That is, the fallen nature is such that humans are not even capable of choosing good." 
Having dealt with the Biblical problems with Calvin's doctrine of predestination and the implicated absence of true free-will, I wanted to say a few things about the philisophical problems of this doctrine as well. I will do so, by simply bringing up some of the earliest Christian's view on the subject. Starting with the second century, where we have the testimony of the Epistle to Diognetus. 

"He sent Him; as to men He sent Him; as a Saviour He sent Him, and as seeking to persuade, not to compel us; for violence has no place in the character of God." (Mathetes to Diognetus 7, in ANF 1:27) 

"But lest some suppose, from what has been said by us, that we say that whatever happens, happens by a fatal necessity, because it is foretold as known beforehand, this too we explain. We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, and chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man's actions. Since if it be not so, but all things happen by fate, neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it be fated that this man, e.g., be good, and this other evil, neither is the former meritorious nor the latter to be blamed. And again, unless the human race have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions, of whatever kind they be." (Justin Martyr, First Apology 43, in ANF 1:177) 

"For there is no coercion with God, but a good will [towards us] is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all. And in man, as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice (for angels are rational beings), so that those who had yielded obedience might justly possess what is good, given indeed by God, but preserved by themselves . . . . But if some had been made by nature bad, and others good, these latter would not be deserving of praise for being good, for such were they created; nor would the former be reprehensible, for thus they were made [originally]." (Irenaeus, Against Heresies 4:37:1-2, in ANF 1:518-519, brackets in original.) 

"And neither praises nor censures, neither rewards nor punishments, are right, when the soul has not the power of inclination and disinclination, but evil is involuntary. Whence he who prevents is a cause; while he who prevents not judges justly the soul's choice. So in no respect is God the author of evil. But since free choice and inclination originate sins, and a mistaken judgment sometimes prevails, from which, since it is ignorance and stupidity, we do not take pains to recede, punishments are rightly inflicted." (Clement of Alexandria, Stromata 1:17, in ANF 2:319.) 

...to be continued 



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Edited 1/6/2004 5:39:31 PM ET by SEVEN7UP 
  
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  From:  seven7up   Jan-6 2:33 pm  
To:  seven7up   (7 of 167)  
 
  773.7 in reply to 773.5  
 
"Whether any one, truly hearing the word of the true Prophet; is willing or unwilling to receive it, and to embrace His burden, that is, the precepts of life, he has either in his power, for we are free in will. For if it were so, that those who hear had it not in their power to do otherwise than they had heard, there were some power of nature in virtue of which it were not free to him to pass over to another opinion. Or if, again, no one of the hearers could at all receive it, this also were a power of nature which should compel the doing of some one thing, and should leave no place for the other course. But now, since it is free for the mind to turn its judgment to which side it pleases, and to choose the way which it approves, it is clearly manifest that there is in men a liberty of choice." (Peter, in Clementine Recognitions 5:6, in ANF 8:144.) 
In the third century Lactantius: "He devised an unspeakable work, in what manner He might create an infinite multitude of souls, which being at first united with frail and feeble bodies, He might place in the midst between good and evil, that He might set virtue before them composed as they were of both natures; that they might not attain to immortality by a delicate and easy course of life, but might arrive at that unspeakable reward of eternal life with the utmost difficulty and great labours." (Lactantius, Divine Institutes 7:5, in ANF 7:200.) 

So also Origen: "We, however, who know of only one nature in every rational soul, and who maintain that none has been created evil by the Author of all things, but that many have become wicked through education, and perverse example, and surrounding influences, so that wickedness has been naturalized in some individuals. . . ." (Origen, Against Celsus 3:69, in ANF 4:491). 

And Methodius: "Now those who decide that man is not possessed of free-will, and affirm that he is governed by the unavoidable necessities of fate, and her unwritten commands, are guilty of impiety towards God Himself, making Him out to be the cause and author of human evils." (Methodius, Banquet of the Ten Virgins 8:16, in ANF 6:342.) 

In the fourth century Cyril of Jerusalem: "The soul is self-governed: and though the devil can suggest, he has not the power to compel against the will. He pictures to thee the thought of fornication: if thou wilt, thou acceptest it; if thou wilt not, thou rejectest. For if thou were a fornicator by necessity, then for what cause did God prepare hell? If thou were a doer of righteousness by nature and not by will, wherefore did God prepare crowns of ineffable glory? The sheep is gentle, but never was it crowned for its gentleness: since its gentle quality belongs to it not from choice but by nature." (Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures 4:21, in NPNF Series 2, 7:24.) 

All in all, it simply takes logic to understand the inconsistency of Calvanism. If God creates all men out of nothing and if God has elected certain people to salvation by grace and others to condemnation, wouldn't everything happen exactly according to His plan? If it all originated from God in the first place, how can His purposes be frustrated? Thus, strict Calvinism is logically consistent only if one ignores the belief that God wills all men to be saved which is also found in the Bible. 

7up
 
  
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  From:  8320john1   Jan-8 10:25 am  
To:  seven7up   (8 of 167)  
 
  773.8 in reply to 773.1  
 
Same old Arminian and Pelagian error. 
Peace and Blessings,
 
  
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  From:  Hamilton109   Jan-13 10:45 am  
To:  8320john1   (9 of 167)  
 
  773.9 in reply to 773.8  
 
Well, lemme hit you from a different angle. 
As a Messianic Jew who gets pretty will marinated in the Torah and Tenakh as well as the New Testament I have an observation. 

Adoni created an order of faith and worship that heavily emphasizes two things; participation and choice. 

There are very very few times when our participation is not demanded BEFORE HaShem will work his miracles. Virtually all of the works of wonder are participatory, so how can I take a theology seriously when it tells us that we do not, we CANNOT, participate? 

Now participation implies choice, or it is simply meaningless. Do a study on how many times the Creator asks us to CHOOSE what we will do. Is The Lord a mocker when he asks this? The one I worship is not a mocker. 

Participation and choice key concepts and I don't see how Calvinism even begins to deal with these adequately. 

Hamilton
 
  
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  From:  8320john1   Jan-13 3:52 pm  
To:  Hamilton109   (10 of 167)  
 
  773.10 in reply to 773.9  
 
>>Participation and choice key concepts and I don't see how Calvinism even begins to deal with these adequately.<< 
That because you have a distorted view of "Calvinism." 

 
  
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  From:  Hamilton109   Jan-13 4:44 pm  
To:  8320john1   (11 of 167)  
 
  773.11 in reply to 773.10  
 
Oh really? 
What I hear is that if I say that I choose or participate that it is "works rightiousness." I have heard that consistantly. 

Now perhaps those who were the understandings of people who didn't properly articulate calvinism, if so please give us a correct interpretation. 

H.
 
  
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  From:  seven7up   Jan-15 7:28 am  
To:  8320john1   (12 of 167)  
 
  773.12 in reply to 773.8  
 
Don't just tell me that I have made an error. Explain, if you can, why I have made an error. 
We know that God loves all of His children. 

How is it that you believe that God can create a particular man out of nothing, knowing that the man will choose evil, and subsequently suffer in eternal damnation? How is that an act of a kind and gracious Heavenly Father? 

7up 



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Edited 1/15/2004 1:22:15 PM ET by SEVEN7UP 
  
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  From:  8320john1   Jan-15 6:43 pm  
To:  seven7up   (13 of 167)  
 
  773.13 in reply to 773.12  
 
Of course God loves all of HIS Children. 
So actually you are a universalist!?
 
  
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  From:  Watchman77    Jan-16 2:59 am  
To:  seven7up   (14 of 167)  
 
  773.14 in reply to 773.7  
 
I couldn't agree with you more....
Love & Blessings 
YSICJ Earla

I share, because I care, if you don't want it, don't take it, leave it for someone who does....(but please don't chew it up and spit it out, it makes it very distateful to others)
Watchman77 


http://forums.delphiforums.com/Godswrath/start 
(Watch ye therefore and Pray always)

  

Art used by permission by Pat Marvenko Smith, copyright 1992.
Click here to visit her "Revelation Illustrated" site.
   Pat Marvenko Smith


  And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and He that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He doth judge and make war. Rev 19:11

  
http://community.webshots.com/album/84317972ePlwdi
 
  
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  From:  IM4GIVN2   Jan-20 1:26 am  
To:  seven7up   (15 of 167)  
 
  773.15 in reply to 773.5  
 
Amen! I am enjoying reading your posts. Do we continue in sin because of grace? God Forbid! :) 
  
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  From:  addiction67   Jan-21 9:28 pm  
To:  seven7up   (16 of 167)  
 
  773.16 in reply to 773.1  
 
Seven7Up, 
Pretty good article, but there's still some things to confront. Though I am not a Calvinist myself persay, objectively it is easier to prove with the Bible, and therefore to me holds more wieght. I think a big problem, is that people associate HYPER Calvinism to be Calvinism. That's were a lot of the errors come in. Below is a link to a very easy to follow website on Calvinism with good scripture references and logical arguements. Check it out when you can. 

http://www.mslick.com/ 

Take care, 

ADD
 
  
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  From:  BRU_ce[AwC]Gen[Fifteen Dollah] (BRU_ce_x)   Jan-23 8:29 pm  
To:  seven7up   (17 of 167)  
 
  773.17 in reply to 773.1  
 
LOL, don't you sometimes post at MaximumPC? 
Why did I come to this forum? I dunno. It was in the list on Delphi :P
 
  
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  From:  Cookster (_Cookster_)    Jan-23 8:59 pm  
To:  seven7up   (18 of 167)  
 
  773.18 in reply to 773.1  
 
Here's my anthesis to Calvanism. You should find this very thought provoking.

 

Host of Preacher's Access: http://forums.delphiforums.com/preachersaccess/messages Now unto Jesus, the invisible, omniscient, omnipotent, omnificent and omnipresent uncreated Creator be all the glory forever and ever. Amen!


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Edited 1/24/2004 12:00:57 AM ET by Cookster (_COOKSTER_) 
- Attachments follow -
openview_of_god.doc
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  From:  seven7up   Jan-24 10:44 am  
To:  8320john1   (19 of 167)  
 
  773.19 in reply to 773.13  
 
God loves every human being he ever created. However he will not force us to do his will. That is not his character. We have true free will that allows us to either accept or reject the enticings of the Holy Spirit. 
Am I a universalist? I guess that depends what you mean. I believe that every man, woman, and child who ever lived on the earth will be judged for their own personal lives, based upon their own individual circumstances. Sin is failure to walk in the light that you have been given. How can someone be condemned for rejecting the gospel of Jesus Christ when they never had the opportunity to hear it? 

Fortunately the Bible holds two epistles from Peter (I wish there were more from him). He spoke of Christ's ministry to those who dwelled in the spirit world. Hades is composed of both Paradise and prison. Jesus preached to the spirits that they may "live according to God in the spirit. 

This is the universal nature of the gospel of Christ as I know it. I cannot comprehend a God who would create billions of souls out of nothing in order to only give 4% the opportunity to be redeemed through the infinite atonement. That does not make sense. 

"For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit." [1 Pet. 4: 6] 

Of course, some may never fully accept the gospel in this life or the next. Therefore, not every soul will be saved. Nonetheless, every soul will recieve exactly what they deserve. We will reap what we sow, be judged according to our works, and be saved unto the gospel of repentance by the grace of God. This is no watered down gospel. It is the simple truth. A servant of God said it correctly. 

"But while one portion of the human race is judging and condemning the other without mercy, the Great Parent of the universe looks upon the whole of the human family with a fatherly care and paternal regard; He views them as His offspring, and without any of those contracted feelings that influence the children of men, causes "His sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust." He holds the reins of judgment in His hands; He is a wise Lawgiver, and will judge all men, not according to the narrow, contracted notions of men, but, "according to the deeds done in the body whether they be good or evil," or whether these deeds were done in England, America, Spain, Turkey, or India. He will judge them, "not according to what they have not, but according to what they have," those who have lived without law, will be judged without law, and those who have a law, will be judged by that law. We need not doubt the wisdom and intelligence of the Great Jehovah; He will award judgment or mercy to all nations according to their several deserts, their means of obtaining intelligence, the laws by which they are governed, the facilities afforded them of obtaining correct information, and His inscrutable designs in relation to the human family; and when the designs of God shall be made manifest, and the curtain of futurity be withdrawn, we shall all of us eventually have to confess that the Judge of all the earth has done right." 

7up 

 
  
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   From:  LenBenHEAR/LIFE_or_death:SEE: John 3:36 (franknsense)    Jan-28 2:10 am  
To:  addiction67   (20 of 167)  
 
  773.20 in reply to 773.16  
 
Hi Add. Here is an excellent perspective on the problem: 
~ Please read carefully the following insights taken from: 

www.raycomfort.com/helps/faq.html 

(Ray Comfort is an evangelist and Bible teacher) 
he also has a website at: 

www.livingwaters.com 

and 

www.wayofthemaster.com 

Do you believe in "Once saved always saved?" 
---------------------------------------------- 

When people call and ask where I stand on the charismatic 
issue, prophecy, predestination, etc., I tell them that 
I don't have an opinion because I don't want to divide 
the Body of Christ. 

However, let me share where I stand 
on one issue that I think Christians may be able to come 
closer together on--the issue of "Once saved always saved." 

Someone asked my opinion on a book on the subject, written 
by a very respected man of God. After reading the book, 
one thing I noticed, was there was a very evident silence 
on the subject of true and false conversion. This was 
despite the fact that it is incredibly relevant to the 
topic dealt with in the book. The New Testament deals with 
this in great depth. It tells of Judas' profession of faith 
(he was in truth a thief, and was referred to by Jesus as 
a "devil"), to the parables of Jesus about the true and 
false "believers" sitting alongside one another. It speaks 
of Demas, who forsook Paul because he "loved this present 
world." As such, he revealed himself to be an enemy of 
God--"Whoever is a friend of the world is an enemy of God.". 

In one case, the author referred to a pastor/friend who was 
found to be "romantically" involved with another woman. 
The pastor had made his mind up to divorce his wife and 
marry the woman. I presume he means that he had been 
committing adultery. Instead of challenging the man as 
to the validity of his faith, and therefore warning him 
that "adulterers will not inherit the kingdom of God," he 
spoke of the man's "loss of rewards." 

I do believe in eternal security for a true convert. 
He puts his hand to the plow and doesn't look back, 
because he is "fit" for the kingdom (Luke 9:62). 

Those who are fit for the Kingdom are not hypocrites as 
was Judas. The true convert is eternally secure in his 
faith, because his faith in Jesus is genuine rather than false. 

However, if a man steals, lies, kills, rapes, hates, 
lusts, covets, commits adultery, etc., and calls himself 
a Christian, he would be very wise to examine himself and 
see if he is "in the faith." The Bible makes it very clear 
that hypocrites will not inherit the Kingdom of Heaven. 

If a man has no understanding of true and false conversion 
(in his ignorance), he may make a calculated decision to 
forsake a few future eternal rewards and trade them for 
the immediate and temporary pleasures of sin. His confidence 
is in an interpretation of scripture that may have eternally 
tragic repercussions. 

I think that teaching on true and false conversion would 
clear the air when it comes to the contentions between two 
opinions that so often divide the Church. It would bring 
closer together those who say you can lose your salvation 
at the drop of a sinful hat, and others who think that 
Christians can get away with murder and still be assured 
that they are saved, because they once professed faith 
in the Savior. 

===================================== 

Also, regarding TRUE and FALSE conversion: we have the 
very clear word found in The Parable of the Sower: only ONE 
CATEGORY brings forth fruit that PROVES their conversion; 
the others are merely false and fall by the wayside. 

--------------------------------------------------- 


~ CHOICES. ~


 
-----------------------------



--> but the wise SHALL understand. <-- 


sanctification. - who've got to have it: inwardly AND outwardly. fruit and motives are everything. 




==================================

~ PLEASE NOTE: 

YOU will be EITHER the cross on His right...or the cross on His left. - these symbolize the whole of humanity in relation to Him: The Savior and Judge of every soul. And THIS I declare to you both in love and in the authority of His Holy Name and Word: for you *are* EITHER {and *WILL be* either}one or the other. ~ Selah. {pause and ponder that very carefully}

for IT IS AN ETERNAL TRUTH. 
 
  
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From:  addiction67   Jan-28 9:38 am  
To:  LenBenHEAR/LIFE_or_death:SEE: John 3:36 (franknsense)   (21 of 167)  
 
  773.21 in reply to 773.20  
 
Hi Len, 
Long time no talk. 

+++Do you believe in "Once saved always saved?"+++ 

Sort of, but let me explain since I'm not really a Calvinist. I believe that true believers, true children of God, will not back slide nor even do anything to cause a loss of salvation. I do believe there are people within the Christian community, that though they claim to be Christian, they aren't. The problem with not believing in OSAS is that this means that you believe in Salvation by works, which the Bible is clearly opposed to. 

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. 

Consider these as well, 

"I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own." John 10:14 

"But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you." John 10:26 

Anyways, I don't believe in dividing Christians over Calvinism or Arminainism. If you want to believe in OSAS, fine, if you don't, that's fine too. But be a believer, and be a good person, you are justified among MEN, not God, but among men by your good works. Take care, 

ADD 

 
  
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  From:  seven7up   Jan-31 12:20 pm  
To:  Cookster (_Cookster_)    (22 of 167)  
 
  773.22 in reply to 773.18  
 
Sorry. I didn't get your comments about Calvanism from the link. People say that they can "prove" Calvanism from the Bible, but people say they can "prove" a lot of things from the Bible. It is all a matter of interpretation. That is why we find thousands of denominations within Christianity. However, I want to comment on what was on the bottom of your post. 
It stated ... "Now unto Jesus, the invisible, omniscient, omnipotent, omnificent and omnipresent uncreated Creator be all the glory forever and ever. Amen!" 

I thought that all of the glory goes to the Father. This is what Jesus taught. Correct me if I am wrong when I explain this. 

In the New Testament Stephen saw Son on the Right hand of the Father. Acts 7: 55 
saw . . . Jesus standing on the right hand of God. 

Then we have several times in the Bible, Christ being sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on High. Mark 16: 19 Luke 22: 69 Acts 2: 33 Acts 5: 31 (notice that in these two previous Acts verses Jesus was "exalted" by the Father.) Acts 7: 56 Rom. 8: 34 Col. 3: 1 Heb. 10: 12 Heb. 8: 1 an high priest . . . on the right hand of the throne. 

1 Pet. 3: 22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him. (notice that things were "made subject unto him") 

Christ's glory was given to him by the Father. It was not his to begin with. 

Dan. 7: 14 given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom. 
Heb. 1: 2 his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things. 
Luke 10: 22 All things are delivered to me of my Father. 
John 3: 35 Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand. 
John 5: 43 I am come in my Fathers name. 
John 7: 16 My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. 
Acts 4: 27 Jesus, whom thou hast anointed. 
Acts 10: 42 (Acts 17: 31) he which was ordained of God. 
Heb. 1: 2 spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed. 
Heb. 5: 10 Called of God an high priest. 
1 Pet. 1: 20 foreordained before the foundation of the world. 
Rev. 5: 12 Lamb that was slain to receive power. 
Rev. 12: 10 kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ. 
John 5: 19 do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do. 
1 Cor. 15: 28 shall the Son also himself be subject unto him. 
John 5: 22 (John 5: 27; Jude 1: 15) hath committed all judgment unto the Son. 

Furthermore, compare your statement with the following scriptures. 

Heb. 1: 6 he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world. 
Rev. 3: 14 the Amen . . . the beginning of the creation of God. 
John 1: 1 In the beginning was the Word. 
Col. 1: 15 the image of the invisible God, the firstborn. 
Rev. 1: 11 (Rev. 22: 13) I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last. 

It says that Jesus was born, begotten, and the beginning of the creation of God. The first Christians believed this doctrine as well, untill the doctrine changed to a more Nicene Creed theology. 

7up 

 
  
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  From:  Cookster (_Cookster_)    Jan-31 10:17 pm  
To:  seven7up   (23 of 167)  
 
  773.23 in reply to 773.22  
 
Did you read my anthesis to Calvanism? Down load that and read through it. As to my the end of my post about Jesus. I beleive that Jesus is God himslf in human flesh, the Bible teaches this one truth! 
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    Jan-31 11:15 pm  
To:  Cookster (_Cookster_)    (24 of 167)  
 
  773.24 in reply to 773.23  
 
Hi Cookster,

 

Its always great to see you posting here.

 

I totally agree with you.

 

Jesus is worthy of All Praise, Honor and Respect!

 

He is God from the beginning the Bible is clear that Jesus is God and He is to be Worshiped as God.

 

John 17:5 And now O Father, glorify thou Me with Thy own Self with the glory which I had with Thee before the world was.

 

God Bless you always,

David A. Brown



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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  From:  8320john1   Feb-1 6:48 am  
To:  seven7up   (25 of 167)  
 
  773.25 in reply to 773.19  
 
This is the root of the question, and that is, does God love every human being in the same way as He loves His elect? And the answer has to be NO. This is not a matter of "calvinism" vs. "arminianism," but a question of what does the Bible teach? Does man have a free wikllk in terms of his selection unto etrnal life or is salvation of the Lord. Is the selection of the elect prescience or "fore-knowledge," 
as understood from all Biblical passages? 
Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated seems to be a pivot in the Mind of God in terms of sovereignty. 

It's not a matter of judging others, they are already judge if they are not to be found in Christ, that is to say the election. 

It is not a matter of proving Calvin or Arminius, but establishing Apostolic Doctrine employing ALL that is said in Scripture regarding God's dealings with man, both of the elect and those appointed to condemnation whom God having endured with much long suffering destroys from His Presence. 

"...I pray not for the world but for those whom thou hast given Me." Jesus. 

 
  
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  From:  Christ, our Hope (amym38)     Feb-1 11:23 pm  
To:  8320john1   (26 of 167)  
 
  773.26 in reply to 773.25  
 
Hello,

Our pastor's sermon today was on Jacob and Esau.  I am beginning to understand...more and more...about this 'election.'  Thanks.

 
 
 

 
  
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  From:  8320john1   Feb-2 4:00 am  
To:  Christ, our Hope (amym38)    (27 of 167)  
 
  773.27 in reply to 773.26  
 
You're most welcome. 
Election and calling (pre-destination) etc, is not the construct of John Calvin, but is sober OT and Apostolic Doctrine. The True and Living God doeth whatsoever He will and calls whom He will and for what purpose according to His Divine eternal design. 

Let it be stated by me that the majority of evangelical American Christians are Arminian in one cloak or another. They believe God chose them because He knew that they would choose Him. Which is really a way of saying, they chose themselves, but this is not the testimony of Scripture begining with the creation of Adam down to the present hour. 

The struggle between Christians over the issue of election and calling, pre-destiny and foreknowledge will continue down to the PAROUSIA of Yeshua wherein more truth will be known. One does not have to be a "calvinist" to be saved and certainly not an "arminian" to be elect. But both groups contain the children of God, some just better informed in some ways than the other. 

The essentials of the Faith is the true "born again" experience which is the necessary fact of "regeneration." Without that, all is merely a theological discussion with no power to transform truly. 

"Ye MUST be born again." -- Jesus. 

Peace and Blessings, 

 
  
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  From:  Christ, our Hope (amym38)     Feb-2 10:12 am  
To:  8320john1   (28 of 167)  
 
  773.28 in reply to 773.27  
 
Yes, John.  Thank you.   I would love it if you'd post more on this.   The Church is underfed [and lied to], and we are anemic and shallow because of it.  

amy

 
 
 

 
  
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  From:  8320john1   Feb-2 2:07 pm  
To:  Christ, our Hope (amym38)    (29 of 167)  
 
  773.29 in reply to 773.28  
 
There are some excellent links that address this issue. I'll post a few for you later this evening. 
  
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  From:  Christ, our Hope (amym38)     Feb-3 11:51 am  
To:  8320john1   (30 of 167)  
 
  773.30 in reply to 773.29  
 
Thank you, John.
 
 
 

 
  
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  From:  seven7up   Feb-9 1:15 pm  
To:  8320john1   (31 of 167)  
 
  773.31 in reply to 773.25  
 
John: "This is the root of the question, and that is, does God love every human being in the same way as He loves His elect? And the answer has to be NO." 
In other words, when God was creating souls, he said #this one I will love more and make him elect #this one I will not love and damn for eternity #this one I will create, not save, and send to destruction because I will not love him as much #this one I will not love and send it to hell #this one I will create, he will be sinful, but I will save .... etc. 

No wonder good, logical, and intelligent people reject the so-called "gospel of Jesus Christ" that some of you believe in. 

John : "This is not a matter of "calvinism" vs. "arminianism," but a question of what does the Bible teach?" 

Nobody seems to agree what exactly the Bible teaches. Yet another problem with Christanity. So much for one faith, one baptism, one doctrine, etc. 

John: "...the elect and those appointed to condemnation whom God having endured with much long suffering destroys from His Presence." 

What kind of long-suffering is that. God created them to be destroyed. He supposedly created them to be who they are. That actually would mean that it is God's fault that they go to hell. That is the most ridiculous religion I have ever heard of in my life. 

Furthermore, it just so happens that YOU and your buddies are some of the "elect" through nothing but pure luck on your part, and on God's part he just randomly created sinful worthless creatures of whom he decides to love, therfore save, a small minority. 

Good luck with that theology. 

7up
 
  
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  From:  seven7up   Feb-9 1:30 pm  
To:  Cookster (_Cookster_)    (32 of 167)  
 
  773.32 in reply to 773.23  
 
Cookster "As to my the end of my post about Jesus. I beleive that Jesus is God himslf in human flesh, the Bible teaches this one truth!" 
You only wish it was that simple. What the Bible actually teaches is that Jesus Christ is Jehovah of the Old Testament. Even so, Jesus is not the Father. 

He comes in the name of the Father. He is the mediator between God the Father and mankind. By him and through him God created the heavens and earth. All things were done under the direction of the Father. Christ became one with the Father in will, love, authority, and dominion. Read chapter 17 of St. Johns Gospel He is an heir of his Father's kingdom. 

The Bible actually teaches of two individuals, the Father and the Son, who are in harmony of will and love. The reason Jesus carries the title of "God" is because all things were given to him. 

Dan. 7: 14 given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom. 
Heb. 1: 2 his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things. 
Luke 10: 22 All things are delivered to me of my Father. 
John 3: 35 Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand. 
John 5: 43 I am come in my Fathers name. 
John 7: 16 My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. 
Acts 4: 27 Jesus, whom thou hast anointed. 
Acts 10: 42 (Acts 17: 31) he which was ordained of God. 
Heb. 1: 2 spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed. 
Heb. 5: 10 Called of God an high priest. 
1 Pet. 1: 20 foreordained before the foundation of the world. 
Rev. 5: 12 Lamb that was slain to receive power. 
Rev. 12: 10 kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ. 
John 5: 19 do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do. 
1 Cor. 15: 28 shall the Son also himself be subject unto him. 
John 5: 22 (John 5: 27; Jude 1: 15) hath committed all judgment unto the Son. 

Jesus cannot be in fact the same being as the Father, because Christ was the first creation (i.e. the first begotten). Rev. 3: 14 the Amen . . . the beginning of the creation of God. 

7up 

 
  
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  From:  Watchman77    Feb-9 1:46 pm  
To:  seven7up unread  (33 of 167)  
 
  773.33 in reply to 773.31  
 
In other words, when God was creating souls, he said #this one I will love more and make him elect #this one I will not love and damn for eternity #this one I will create, not save, and send to destruction because I will not love him as much #this one I will not love and send it to hell #this one I will create, he will be sinful, but I will save .... etc. 

No wonder good, logical, and intelligent people reject the so-called "gospel of Jesus Christ" that some of you believe in. 

AMEN! this cannot be what the bible calls "Good News"

What kind of long-suffering is that. God created them to be destroyed. He supposedly created them to be who they are. That actually would mean that it is God's fault that they go to hell. That is the most ridiculous religion I have ever heard of in my life. 

Furthermore, it just so happens that YOU and your buddies are some of the "elect" through nothing but pure luck on your part, and on God's part he just randomly created sinful worthless creatures of whom he decides to love, therfore save, a small minority. 

Please understand that this is NOT the christianity of the bible... This is NOT what Jesus Christ died for. Jesus did not die for an elect, He died for the whole world... He died to bring ALL men back to God, not just a handful of "forgiven pathetic sinners". 

Love & Blessings 
YSICJ Earla

Ralph Waldo Emerson may have said it best:

"To laugh often and much; to win the respect of intelligent people and the affection of children; to earn the appreciation of honest critics and endure the betrayal of false friends; to appreciate beauty, to find the best in others; to leave the world a little better; whether by a healthy child, a garden patch or a redeemed social condition; to know even one life has breathed easier because you have lived. This is the meaning of success."

http://forums.delphiforums.com/Godswrath/start 
(Watch ye therefore and Pray always)

  

Art used by permission by Pat Marvenko Smith, copyright 1992.
Click here to visit her "Revelation Illustrated" site.
   Pat Marvenko Smith


  And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and He that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He doth judge and make war. Rev 19:11

  
http://community.webshots.com/album/84317972ePlwdi
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    Feb-9 3:22 pm  
To:  seven7up   (34 of 167)  
 
  773.34 in reply to 773.32  
 
Hi Seven7up,

 

Your group is conveniently overlooking some verses.

 

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon His shoulder: and His name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, The Mighty God, The Everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

 

John 8:19 Then said they unto Him, where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know Me, nor My Father: if ye had known Me, ye should have known My Father also.

 

John 9:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I Am.

 

John 10:30 I and the Father are ONE.

 

God Bless you,
David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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  From:  seven7up   Feb-10 1:54 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (35 of 167)  
 
  773.35 in reply to 773.34  
 
Jesus came in the name of His Father. John 5: 43 (John 10: 25) I am come in my Fathers name. Look at a church Father's words on the subject. Pre-Nicene council. 
"We are not afraid to speak, in one sense of two Gods, in another sense of one God." Origen, Dial Heracl. 2:3 . "And these, while they are two, considered as persons or subsistences, are one in unity of thought, in harmony and in identity of will." Origen, Against Celsus 8:12 

John 8:19 Then said they unto Him, where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know Me, nor My Father: if ye had known Me, ye should have known My Father also. 

The above words by Origen explain this verse quite well. As I understand it. Jesus is the first begotten spirit of God, who became one in purpose, love, and will and was the means by which God created the Heavens and the earth. 

John 9:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I Am. 

I know that Jesus is Jehovah of the Old Testament. No argument here. 

John 10:30 I and the Father are ONE. 

See St. Johns gospel chapter 17. 

 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    Feb-10 3:08 pm  
To:  seven7up unread  (36 of 167)  
 
  773.36 in reply to 773.35  
 
Hi,

 

Jesus is God in the Flesh. He is both God and Human.

 

You are taking verses that describe His humanity and then are using them against Him, all the while totally ignoring the verses that confirm the Everlasting Deity of Jesus.

 

Jesus is 100% God and 100% Human in order to Reconcile us Humans back to God. If Jesus was not God or if He did not come in the flesh as a Human then Humans and God would not be Reconciled we would still be seperated and lost.

 

What is a firstborn spirit person?

 

Jesus was Incarnated 2,000 years ago there are many people physically born before Jesus so if you are trying to say that Jesus is sort of like everyone else or that everyone else is like Jesus I cant follow the connection. However Jesus is the Only Person who is Pre-existent and the only person to manifest via a Virgin conception and Virgin birth.

 

Sorry, but your teachings make no sense.

 

God Bless you,
David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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  From:  WendyJM1    Feb-10 3:55 pm  
To:  seven7up   (37 of 167)  
 
  773.37 in reply to 773.7  
 
Hi 7UP - some good thoughts!  I've also posted a lot of information over the years on my forum on this subject. It is always so interesting that the minute you write about this subject you have someone who wants to immediately "label" you arminian.  On the other side, others label people immediately "calvinists" if they believe in the sovereignty of God.  

I'm not an arminian, nor a calvinist.  I believe there is a BIBLICAL place that is clearly neither of those.  A great writer of the past, who is now long with the Lord is Lewis Sperry Chafer.  If you can get his "old" books called "Systematic Theology" (the new ones have been 'abridged'), he does a masterful work on this subject.  For a smaller book that he has that also covers this *excellently* is "GRACE - An Exposition of God's Marvelous Gift".

Another great website that I visit often is the Middletown Bible Church. I also know George Zeller, the pastor there, and a very balanced man of God.  Here are some links that he has from his site, that are excellent, and will only help all of us see this subject *clearly* and *Biblically*...

Issues Relating to the Extent of the Atonement
For Whom Did Christ Die? - A Defense of Unlimited Atonement
The Cross-Work of Christ - Is It Limited or Unlimited?
The Saviour of All Men (1 Timothy 4:10) [PDF Version]

Issues Relating to God's Sovereignty and Man's Responsibility
God's Sovereignty and Man's Responsibility
Questions for Extreme Calvinists
God's Willingness and Man's Unwillingness -A Problem For Extreme Calvinists

Issues Relating to Saving Faith
Does Regeneration Precede Faith? -What does the Bible really teach?
What is the "Gift of God"? - A Study of Ephesians 2:8-9 
Arthur Pink's Teaching on Saving Faith - An Analysis 

Issues Relating to Regeneration
Does Regeneration Precede Faith? -What does the Bible really teach?
Reformed Theology and Regeneration by David Dunlap

Issues Relating to the Cross
Did the Saviour Pay the Penalty for our Sins Prior to the Cross? -An Examination of a Serious Error Held by Some Reformed Men

Issues Relating to Justification
Vicarious Law-Keeping (Christ's Active Righteousness) - Is this Reformed Doctrine Biblical?

Issues Relating to Lordship Salvation
Saved By Grace Alone - A Clarification of the Lordship Salvation issue
The Glorious Gospel of the Blessed God - What is the true gospel?
Charles Spurgeon and Lordship Salvation 

 

more at: http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/reformed/reformed.htm

 

In Christ - Wendy

 

 
 
  
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  From:  8320john1   Feb-11 3:54 am  
To:  WendyJM1    (38 of 167)  
 
  773.38 in reply to 773.37  
 
Good links, I probably have everything published of Pink's works as well as others. 
I hold to LIMITED ATONEMENT and reject UNlimited atonement as a sop to the Arminians. 

I too, am neither "Calvinistic" and certainly not an Arminian. I choose the word, "Apostolic," that is, to ascertain the accuracy of the teachings of the Apostle/Prophets. Not to dismiss the teachings of the Torah, Writings and the Prophets. 

I have gain much value from the ministry of S. Lewis Johnson and others of his calibre. 

I regard the doctrine of UNlimited atonement as an absurdity, but the issue will never be settled until the Lord of Hosts' PAROUSIA. 

Either way, the elect will hear and receive. Preaching must be prosecuted while it is still day, the night cometh when no man can work. 

Chafer was a fine man of God. 

 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    Feb-11 7:33 am  
To:  WendyJM1    (39 of 167)  
 
  773.39 in reply to 773.38  
 
Hi Wendy,

 

Maybe sometime we can discuss Atonement.

 

Because for starters in a sense Atonement is to come from Man and not from God. It is man that is supposed to offer atonement to God.

 

It is Man that has offended God and therefore Man has to provide the Atonement. It is this very reason that Jesus became a man to offer Atonement unto God. So of course Atonement is unlimited because it (the repaired relationship) was made open and available through Jesus.

 

My thoughts on this topic are covered in

 

www.BasicChristian.org/theology.html

 

God Bless you,
David

 



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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   From:  SHEILAGIRL1    Feb-11 6:31 pm  
To:  seven7up   (40 of 167)  
 
  773.40 in reply to 773.1  
 
Hi. I'm a Sovereign Grace Calvinist, so I disagree with your post. If GOD didn't choose us, we are lost indeed. None of us, left to ourselves, would ever choose GOD. From Adam forward, we have all run and hid from GOD. If someone says they chose to accept Jesus' sacrifice on Calvary as a covering for sin, they are in error. If you do an OT word study on "choose", you will find that every time Israel chose a god, it was the wrond one. They never chose GOD, not even once. We are no different in this age. Isaiah said it rightly:

Isaiah 53


1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?

2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

  
  
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From:  SHEILAGIRL1    Feb-11 6:37 pm  
To:  seven7up   (41 of 167)  
 
  773.41 in reply to 773.3  
 
>>Those individuals who God decides not to save, will be utterly punished because God decided not to save them. If this were the case, I don't see why God wouldn't just make everyone worthy, and none would be lost. God loves all of his children and wants the best for each and every one of us right?<<

Romans 9


1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,

2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.

3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.

10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

  
  
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  From:  SHEILAGIRL1    Feb-11 6:45 pm  
To:  seven7up   (42 of 167)  
 
  773.42 in reply to 773.4  
 
>>If the entirety of man's being and nature is completely unable to do any righteous act, why did Paul say, "For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts . . . ." (Romans 2:14-15) 

Paul said they were doing it "by nature".<<

Paul is not saying that at all. The law was written on their hearts...by whom? By GOD. It's the same for all of GOD's people. GOD writes the law on our hearts. The natural man is at enmity with GOD.

  
  
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  From:  SHEILAGIRL1    Feb-11 6:48 pm  
To:  seven7up   (43 of 167)  
 
  773.43 in reply to 773.5  
 
Paul is talking to Christians, not to those outside of Christ. Of course we can choose to obey GOD and scripture. We couldn't do that before we were saved. 

  
  
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  From:  SHEILAGIRL1    Feb-11 6:50 pm  
To:  seven7up   (44 of 167)  
 
  773.44 in reply to 773.6  
 
Are you a Roman Catholic? Christians use scripture to answer these questions you are having. It's not good enough to know what someone's opinion might be, but "what sayeth the scripture?"

 

  
  
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  From:  SHEILAGIRL1    Feb-11 6:56 pm  
To:  seven7up   (45 of 167)  
 
  773.45 in reply to 773.7  
 
>>All in all, it simply takes logic to understand the inconsistency of Calvanism. If God creates all men out of nothing and if God has elected certain people to salvation by grace and others to condemnation, wouldn't everything happen exactly according to His plan? If it all originated from God in the first place, how can His purposes be frustrated? Thus, strict Calvinism is logically consistent only if one ignores the belief that God wills all men to be saved which is also found in the Bible.<<

Are you a Christian? I ask because you cite pagans as references to what is the mind of GOD, and your last statement is decidedly unscriptural. I guarentee you that everything happens exactly according to his plan.

  
  
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  From:  SHEILAGIRL1    Feb-11 6:57 pm  
To:  8320john1   (46 of 167)  
 
  773.46 in reply to 773.10  
 
Hello, brother!
  
  
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  From:  SHEILAGIRL1    Feb-11 6:58 pm  
To:  seven7up   (47 of 167)  
 
  773.47 in reply to 773.12  
 
>>We know that God loves all of His children.<<

Where does scripture say this?

  
  
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  From:  SHEILAGIRL1    Feb-11 7:00 pm  
To:  8320john1   (48 of 167)  
 
  773.48 in reply to 773.13  
 
>>Of course God loves all of HIS Children.<<

Thank you! He loved HIS children so much, he sacrificed the Son of his love for us. The corrollary is that he apparently doesn't love (at least in the same way) those he chose not to save.

  
  
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  From:  SHEILAGIRL1    Feb-11 7:07 pm  
To:  seven7up   (49 of 167)  
 
  773.49 in reply to 773.19  
 
>>We have true free will that allows us to either accept or reject the enticings of the Holy Spirit.<<

Who can resist GOD? The Holy Spirit draws us to GOD. The Greek word draw is elko and it means to chain and drag one against one's will. 

Again I will say I'm referring to salvation, not to a Christian's walk with GOD. We can choose to obey GOD after he has quickened us (or made us alive). GOD says we are dead in our trespasses and sins. Dead people can do nothing.

  
  
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  From:  SHEILAGIRL1    Feb-11 7:10 pm  
To:  seven7up   (50 of 167)  
 
  773.50 in reply to 773.22  
 
Do you believe Jesus is GOD?
  
  
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  From:  SHEILAGIRL1    Feb-11 7:11 pm  
To:  Cookster (_Cookster_)   unread  (51 of 167)  
 
  773.51 in reply to 773.23  
 
>>I beleive that Jesus is God himslf in human flesh, the Bible teaches this one truth!<<

Amen!

  
  
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  From:  SHEILAGIRL1    Feb-11 7:12 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (52 of 167)  
 
  773.52 in reply to 773.24  
 
Amen, David! I really like your forum!
  
  
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  From:  SHEILAGIRL1    Feb-11 7:13 pm  
To:  8320john1   (53 of 167)  
 
  773.53 in reply to 773.25  
 
Beautifully said, John!
  
  
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  From:  SHEILAGIRL1    Feb-11 7:13 pm  
To:  Christ, our Hope (amym38)    (54 of 167)  
 
  773.54 in reply to 773.26  
 
Hi, Amy! I saw you in 31. It's good to have you there!
  
  
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  From:  SHEILAGIRL1    Feb-11 7:17 pm  
To:  8320john1   (55 of 167)  
 
  773.55 in reply to 773.27  
 
>>One does not have to be a "calvinist" to be saved and certainly not an "arminian" to be elect.<<

Very true and this is the reason we respond to questions of these kinds. How will they know unless they are taught?

  
  
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  From:  SHEILAGIRL1    Feb-11 7:19 pm  
To:  seven7up   (56 of 167)  
 
  773.56 in reply to 773.31  
 
>>it just so happens that YOU and your buddies are some of the "elect" through nothing but pure luck<<

We like to call it grace.

  
  
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  From:  SHEILAGIRL1    Feb-11 7:28 pm  
To:  Watchman77    (57 of 167)  
 
  773.57 in reply to 773.33  
 
>>Please understand that this is NOT the christianity of the bible... This is NOT what Jesus Christ died for. Jesus did not die for an elect, He died for the whole world... He died to bring ALL men back to God, not just a handful of "forgiven pathetic sinners".<<

Please note verse 9.

John 17


1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.

8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.

11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.

14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.

26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

  
  
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  From:  SHEILAGIRL1    Feb-11 7:37 pm  
To:  WendyJM1    (58 of 167)  
 
  773.58 in reply to 773.37  
 
Chafer was a great man of GOD. I really enjoy reading his stuff.
  
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    Feb-11 11:08 pm  
To:  SHEILAGIRL1    (59 of 167)  
 
  773.59 in reply to 773.58  
 
Hi,

 

Welcome to the forum.

 

I am enjoying your Excellent input and am considering your postings even though I currently tend to the other side.

 

God Bless you Always,

David A. Brown



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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   From:  SHEILAGIRL1    Feb-12 8:55 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (60 of 167)  
 
  773.60 in reply to 773.59  
 
This is one of the great divides of the Church. Sovereign grace doctrines are meat, not milk. One tends to grow into them. *G*
  
  
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http://forums.delphiforums.com/n/mb/edit.asp?webtag=basicchristian&msg=773.80

From:  David (DavidABrown)    Feb-12 9:05 am  
To:  SHEILAGIRL1    (61 of 167)  
 
  773.61 in reply to 773.60  
 
Hi Sheilagirl1,

 

I didnt know that you had come over here to visit from the VRWC Homeland forum.

 

Your forum is the best! Im always looking for good sources of insight and reliable information.

 

Ill be over there often to keep up on current topics and to enjoy the fellowship.

 

I will say that of everyone you have given the best postings regarding Calvinism.

 

Thanks for all your comments and your support.

 

Have an Excellent Day.

 

God Bless you Always,
David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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  From:  SHEILAGIRL1    Feb-12 9:54 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (62 of 167)  
 
  773.62 in reply to 773.61  
 
Pals is a great forum, David. The people there are the best prayer warriors I've ever known. We don't all agree theologically nor politically, but we are all open and honest and tend to make room for all ideologies.

Thanks for the high praise, but the knowledge isn't mine. I read it in the Book. *G* It's my extreme honor to put forth GOD's doctrines of sovereign grace and to contend for the faith.

  
  
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  From:  ~Sassy~ (PARRISH24)    Feb-12 11:54 am  
To:  Christ, our Hope (amym38)    (63 of 167)  
 
  773.63 in reply to 773.62  
 
Hi Amy! Good to see you in other venues always! I pray all is well for you{{HUGS}}



 

 

 
 
 
 
  
  
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  From:  Christ, our Hope (amym38)     Feb-12 11:57 am  
To:  ~Sassy~ (PARRISH24)    (64 of 167)  
 
  773.64 in reply to 773.63  
 
Hey, thanks!  :)  Good to see you, too!
 
 
 

 
  
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  From:  SHEILAGIRL1    Feb-12 6:54 pm  
To:  ~Sassy~ (PARRISH24)    (65 of 167)  
 
  773.65 in reply to 773.63  
 
*waving* *jumping up and down*

Hi!!! This is a great forum!

  
  
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  From:  ~Sassy~ (PARRISH24)    Feb-12 7:43 pm  
To:  SHEILAGIRL1    (66 of 167)  
 
  773.66 in reply to 773.65  
 
I have only got to read a few threads thus far but so far I am liking it here as well. I just need more time to go to places I like.



 

 

 
 
 
 
  
  
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  From:  SHEILAGIRL1    Feb-12 8:13 pm  
To:  ~Sassy~ (PARRISH24)    (67 of 167)  
 
  773.67 in reply to 773.66  
 
Did you see we're in his dropdown??? How cool is that?

 

  
  
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  From:  ~Sassy~ (PARRISH24)    Feb-12 8:20 pm  
To:  SHEILAGIRL1    (68 of 167)  
 
  773.68 in reply to 773.67  
 
Pretty Cool I would say. I was just over at 31 letting David in.


 

 

 

 
 
 
 
  
  
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  From:  SHEILAGIRL1    Feb-12 8:32 pm  
To:  ~Sassy~ (PARRISH24)    (69 of 167)  
 
  773.69 in reply to 773.68  
 
I'm on my way over to 31 right now.
  
  
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  From:  ~Sassy~ (PARRISH24)    Feb-12 8:41 pm  
To:  SHEILAGIRL1    (70 of 167)  
 
  773.70 in reply to 773.69  
 
okie dokie!


 

 

 

 
 
 
 
  
  
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  From:  SHEILAGIRL1    Feb-12 9:33 pm  
To:  ~Sassy~ (PARRISH24)    (71 of 167)  
 
  773.71 in reply to 773.70  
 
I can't believe how pretty your forum is, but you know what? This is how Pals used to be. I'm so comfortable here! LOL
  
  
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  From:  ~Sassy~ (PARRISH24)    Feb-12 10:05 pm  
To:  SHEILAGIRL1    (72 of 167)  
 
  773.72 in reply to 773.71  
 
Oh I never have a problem with this original design. I will be different by the first of the month anyway. Going to Spring it up over there.


 

 

 

 
 
 
 
  
  
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  From:  SHEILAGIRL1    Feb-12 11:05 pm  
To:  ~Sassy~ (PARRISH24)    (73 of 167)  
 
  773.73 in reply to 773.72  
 
Ahhhhhhh! Spring!
  
  
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  From:  seven7up   Feb-13 2:51 pm  
To:  SHEILAGIRL1    (74 of 167)  
 
  773.74 in reply to 773.56  
 
I believe that Jesus is Jehovah of the Old Testament. He is a seperate being from the Father. Christianity has lost a teaching known as suborninationism. In the Godhead, one of the three personages presides over all, He is the Father. Jesus himself said, "The Father is greater than I." Jesus Christ is not the same being as the Father. These two beings are one in purpose, will, and love. Therefore, they are "one God". This is the original Christian teaching, not a developed doctrine decided in some council in order to fend off those who were accusing Christians of polytheism. 
However, curiously enough the Bible says "let US make man in OUR image and after OUR own likeness ... both male and female." Furthermore, the word for God is "Elohim" which is a plural Hebrew noun. 

As far as your Calvanist views go. You are suggesting that God creates billions of souls out of nothing, and chooses only to give love and grace to some, while leaving the others to eternal destruction. I will never worship such a hideous and false god that would do such a thing. 

I guess that means that according to you, I am one of those poor worthless creatures who will spend eternity in hell through no fault of my own. God decided not to give me his love and grace, therefore I am hopelessly headed for destruction. Oh well, ... God created me for this purpose. ...to burn in hell for eternity. Give me a break. 

7up
 
  
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  From:  SHEILAGIRL1    Feb-13 6:15 pm  
To:  seven7up   (75 of 167)  
 
  773.75 in reply to 773.74  
 
>>I am one of those poor worthless creatures who will spend eternity in hell through no fault of my own.<<

If you're not going to hell thru your own fault, who's fault is being held against you? I get real tired of non-christians criticizing my GOD. The answers to all your questions are in the Bible. Try reading it rather than critiquing something you have no knowledge about. Christians can disagree and discuss...no problem. I don't give the same leeway to non-christians that I give to my fellow-believers. WE have a right to be wrong, in error, untaught, whatever...we are still born-again believers. The Spirit teaches US at our own pace. WE are not all on the same page, but by GOD's grace, we're all in the same Book!

Try your 'intellectual' blathering on someone else, I'm not interested. You don't understand the trinity (not many of us do) but I certainly will NOT argue with YOU about it. You are your own god. Unless the Holy Spirit gives you a heart of flesh and repentance unto salvation, you will die your own god and spend eternity in outer darkness. Don't tell me who you will or won't worship. You don't have that choice. Either GOD placed you in Jesus on the cross and wrote your name in the Lamb's Book of Life before the foundation of the world, or he didn't. It's just that simple. Even babes can understand and receive that teaching. Only those who are reprobate, cannot.

Romans 9

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Put that in the pipe you're smoking.

  
  
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  From:  ~Sassy~ (PARRISH24)    Feb-13 7:33 pm  
To:  SHEILAGIRL1    (76 of 167)  
 
  773.76 in reply to 773.73  
 
Yahoo. We can have hope just as we do in the Lord!


 
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  From:  SHEILAGIRL1    Feb-13 8:01 pm  
To:  ~Sassy~ (PARRISH24)    (77 of 167)  
 
  773.77 in reply to 773.76  
 
Yes! I bought daffodil bulbs and set them on the bench in the potting shed and they've bloomed already! LOL I will get them in the dirt tomorrow!
  
  
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  From:  ~Sassy~ (PARRISH24)    Feb-13 8:01 pm  
To:  SHEILAGIRL1    (78 of 167)  
 
  773.78 in reply to 773.75  
 
Jesus Christ claimed to be God, the Creator of the cosmos, the one and only way by which we can enter into Heaven. These are high claims!

Be bold and steadfast unto the coming of the Lord.

John:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Jesus Christ is most definitely God. He created Adam and Eve, the first man and woman, in his image. He is the Creator of the universe. The Bible says, "Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made" (John 1:3). This includes all the stars, all the original animals and plants, and even the angels (Colossians 1:15-17).

It is important not be confused. God did not create Jesus. Jesus is God, and he has always existed.

 MATTHEW 4:7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. {the devil was tempting Jesus Himself} 

 JOHN 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am {he}, ye shall die in your sins. 

JEREMIAH 22:5 But if ye will not hear these words, I swear by myself, saith the Lord, that this house shall become a desolation.<<< Another instance of Jesus' assumed divine prerogative is recorded in Matthew 7:21-22: 

JOHN 1:1-4 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (2) The same was in the beginning with God. (3) All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. (4) In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

JOHN 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. 

JOHN 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. 

 COLOSSIANS 1:15-19 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: (16) For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether {they be} thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: (17) And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. (18) And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all {things} he might have the preeminence. (19) For it pleased {the Father} that in him should all fulness dwell. 

PSALM 33:6 By the word of the Lord were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth. 

REVELATION 1:17-18 Fear not; I am the first and the last: (18) I {am} he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. 

REVELATION 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. 
 
  
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  From:  ~Sassy~ (PARRISH24)    Feb-13 8:02 pm  
To:  SHEILAGIRL1    (79 of 167)  
 
  773.79 in reply to 773.77  
 
It got up to 35 today here so I think I will wait.


   
  
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   From:  SHEILAGIRL1    Feb-13 8:07 pm  
To:  ~Sassy~ (PARRISH24)    (80 of 167)  
 
  773.80 in reply to 773.78  
 
Beautiful!
  
  
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From:  SHEILAGIRL1    Feb-13 8:08 pm  
To:  ~Sassy~ (PARRISH24)    (81 of 167)  
 
  773.81 in reply to 773.79  
 
It was really cool here today, too...and rainy. But tomorrow it will be sunshiny and 60 degrees! YEA!!!!
  
  
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  From:  ~Sassy~ (PARRISH24)    Feb-13 8:10 pm  
To:  SHEILAGIRL1    (82 of 167)  
 
  773.82 in reply to 773.80  
 
Well you go girl. Never back down from your faith.

60 degrees makes me jealous LOL!



 

 

 

 
 
 
 
  
  
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  From:  SHEILAGIRL1    Feb-14 10:51 am  
To:  ~Sassy~ (PARRISH24)    (83 of 167)  
 
  773.83 in reply to 773.82  
 
Well, it's not there yet, and it's not fully sunny, either. LOL But I have great faith that it will be a beautiful day.
  
  
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  From:  ~Sassy~ (PARRISH24)    Feb-14 7:41 pm  
To:  SHEILAGIRL1    (84 of 167)  
 
  773.84 in reply to 773.83  
 
It was good here until about 5pm and then the heavens opened and it is so wet!


 

 

 

 
 
 
 
  
  
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  From:  SHEILAGIRL1    Feb-15 1:16 am  
To:  ~Sassy~ (PARRISH24)    (85 of 167)  
 
  773.85 in reply to 773.84  
 
Cool but dry here.
  
  
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  From:  ~Sassy~ (PARRISH24)    Feb-15 1:30 am  
To:  SHEILAGIRL1    (86 of 167)  
 
  773.86 in reply to 773.85  
 
Go to 31 and read the prayer request for Ryan right away.



 

 

 
 
 
 
  
  
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  From:  SHEILAGIRL1    Feb-15 1:58 am  
To:  ~Sassy~ (PARRISH24)    (87 of 167)  
 
  773.87 in reply to 773.86  
 
On my way!
  
  
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  From:  ~Sassy~ (PARRISH24)    Feb-15 1:59 am  
To:  SHEILAGIRL1    (88 of 167)  
 
  773.88 in reply to 773.87  
 
:0!



 

 

 
 
 
 
  
  
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  From:  seven7up   Feb-17 2:01 pm  
To:  SHEILAGIRL1    (89 of 167)  
 
  773.89 in reply to 773.41  
 
2Pet. 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentence. See also 1 Timothy 2:3-4; 
If God's will is that all come unto repentence and not willing that any should perish, then why would He harden people's hearts. Just so He can enjoy punishing those He decides to harden? Is that some kind of sick joke? 

When the Bible says that God hardens people's hearts, it is quite simply a scribal error. I hate to break it to you, but the protestant Bible that you hold did not fall out of the sky and hit Martin Luther in the head free from error. Centuries and centuries of scribes and re-writing had a few negative results. There was a selection of the Books that people in the Catholic Church chose to put in it, then some were removed. Nevertheless, it is a magnificent and valuable tool to learn about God and His history dealing with man. Still, look at the inconsistency. Here it says that God hardened the heart. Ex. 14: 4, 17) I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go. (speaking of pharoah) 

Yet, here it says it was pharoah who hardened his own heart. Followed by scripture exhorting people not to harden their hearts. By the way, why exhort anyone to do anything if God will harden who He will anyway? Why exhort people to be good if God will make whoever He chooses to be good despite what people choose? 

1 Sam. 6: 6 do ye harden your hearts, as the Egyptians and Pharaoh hardened their hearts. 
Ps. 95: 8 (Heb. 3: 8, 15; Heb. 4: 7) Harden not your heart, as in the provocation 
Prov. 28: 14 he that hardeneth his heart shall fall into mischief. 
Isa. 29: 13 have removed their heart far from me. 
Jer. 7: 26 they hearkened not unto me . . . but hardened their neck. 
John 12: 40 blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart. 
Heb. 4: 7 if ye will hear his voice harden not your hearts. 

So some scriptures say that people harden their own hearts, other scriptures say that God does it. So I ask you this. Knowing the character of God, why would He create a soul out of nothing simply for the purpose of inflicting wrath upon that very same living breathing soul? 

Doesn't make much sense ... does it? 

7up 

 
  
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  From:  SHEILAGIRL1    Feb-17 5:36 pm  
To:  seven7up   (90 of 167)  
 
  773.90 in reply to 773.89  
 
>>When the Bible says that God hardens people's hearts, it is quite simply a scribal error. I hate to break it to you, but the protestant Bible that you hold did not fall out of the sky and hit Martin Luther in the head free from error. Centuries and centuries of scribes and re-writing had a few negative results. There was a selection of the Books that people in the Catholic Church chose to put in it, then some were removed. Nevertheless, it is a magnificent and valuable tool to learn about God and His history dealing with man. Still, look at the inconsistency. Here it says that God hardened the heart. Ex. 14: 4, 17) I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go. (speaking of pharoah) 

Doesn't make much sense ... does it?<<

If you truly believe this, you are without hope. If GOD can't keep his WORD free of error, he's not a god one can trust. The Bible will never make much sense to you if you believe it is errant.

And who are you to question what he does with his creations? We could all be going to hell except that he elected to save some of us. 

I appreciate you trying to instruct me from something you have no confidence in yourself. The good news is, whether we harden our hearts or not, GOD is able to save some to the uttermost.

  
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    Feb-17 9:59 pm  
To:  SHEILAGIRL1    (91 of 167)  
 
  773.91 in reply to 773.90  
 
Excellent Posting!!

 

That goes for everyone who doesnt believe that the Bible is Gods spoken word. Dont bother trying to instruct me from it if you dont believe it and follow it yourself.

 

God Bless you,
David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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  From:  SHEILAGIRL1    Feb-17 11:08 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (92 of 167)  
 
  773.92 in reply to 773.91  
 
Exactly! So much that we believe is based on GOD-given faith, but to think that his communication to us is errant in any way at all, is to be without hope as to his omnipotence!

We see eye to eye on this, David.

  
  
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  From:  seven7up   Feb-19 12:27 pm  
To:  SHEILAGIRL1    (93 of 167)  
 
  773.93 in reply to 773.90  
 
I just showed you an inconsistency in the text. One verse says that God hardened pharoah's heart and the other says pharoah hardened his own. One of the texts is incorrect. Take your pick. 
SHEILA: And who are you to question what he does with his creations? We could all be going to hell except that he elected to save some of us. 

I am a logical believer in a loving and caring God. Not some cruel puppet master who creates living and feeling beings out of nothing with the pure intention of sending the grand majority to hell for eternity. 

SHEILA: I appreciate you trying to instruct me from something you have no confidence in yourself. The good news is, whether we harden our hearts or not, GOD is able to save some to the uttermost. 

However, your god is only able or willing to save just a few. What a pity. 

7up 

 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    Feb-19 5:03 pm  
To:  seven7up unread  (94 of 167)  
 
  773.94 in reply to 773.93  
 
Seven7up,

 

Give it a rest.

 

The Bible is complete, accurate and dynamic.

 

You are attempting to limit its scope and then in your own self imposed restrictions and limitations on the Bible you then declare it to contradict.

 

You give an inaccurate and therefore unfair portrayal of the Bible.

 

Your constant aggression and antagonism is outside of the scope of the Basic Christian forum so therefore I am adding you to the removed from the forum list.

 

David A. Brown



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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  From:  SHEILAGIRL1    Feb-19 8:30 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (95 of 167)  
 
  773.95 in reply to 773.94  
 
It's not unusual for folks to create their own god, then rewrite Holy Scripture to reflect their beliefs. Atheists are first-class at this sort of warfare, but people who "truly believe" in the god of their own creation must, by all means, denigrate the Bible in order for their religion to make sense, even to themselves. It's old stuff and only bothers me in that young Christians can become confused, and that makes me angry. THIS IS THE VERY SAME RUSE SATAN USED IN THE GARDEN.
  
  
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  From:  Watchman77    Feb-20 3:44 am  
To:  seven7up unread  (96 of 167)  
 
  773.96 in reply to 773.4  
 
The truth is that Christ's atonement automatically pays for the effects of Adam's fall that are beyond our individual control. We will be punished for our own sin, and not for Adam's transgression. Children are born in a state of innocence. At least according to Jesus, who told his disciples to let the children come to him, for "of such is the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 19:14) 

Amen and amen!

Paul said they were doing it "by nature". Does this contradict Paul's words in the verses Calvin uses to support his position. Of course not. This is the spiritual nature of man, not the carnal one, that Paul is referring to. Even people who have not heard the gospel can be good if they yield to their spiritual nature. This is clearly evident in the peoples of the world. Some Christians maintain a limited and distorted view on the gospel of Christ (and entire world view) because they do not fully acknowledge this. 

Amen! again.

Love & Blessings 
YSICJ Earla

Ralph Waldo Emerson may have said it best:

"To laugh often and much; to win the respect of intelligent people and the affection of children; to earn the appreciation of honest critics and endure the betrayal of false friends; to appreciate beauty, to find the best in others; to leave the world a little better; whether by a healthy child, a garden patch or a redeemed social condition; to know even one life has breathed easier because you have lived. This is the meaning of success."

http://forums.delphiforums.com/Godswrath/start 
(Watch ye therefore and Pray always)

  

Art used by permission by Pat Marvenko Smith, copyright 1992.
Click here to visit her "Revelation Illustrated" site.
   Pat Marvenko Smith


  And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and He that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He doth judge and make war. Rev 19:11

  
http://community.webshots.com/album/84317972ePlwdi
 
  
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  From:  Watchman77    Feb-20 4:05 am  
To:  seven7up unread  (97 of 167)  
 
  773.97 in reply to 773.31  
 
What kind of long-suffering is that. God created them to be destroyed. He supposedly created them to be who they are. That actually would mean that it is God's fault that they go to hell. That is the most ridiculous religion I have ever heard of in my life. 

Seven, I couldn't agree with you more on this issue... if God were in fact the god calvanism preached, I wouldn't want to serve Him and I sure wouldn't worship Him, because He would not be worthy of worship. A god that would create billions of people so he could reach down and save a handful and deliberately send the rest to eternal damnation is not worthy of worship, but instead would deserve to be hated and despised. 

Another big problem I have with calvanism is that IF it were true and only a small handful of (elected) people will be saved, then God would be a loser and Jesus would have died for nothing.

Love & Blessings 
YSICJ Earla

Ralph Waldo Emerson may have said it best:

"To laugh often and much; to win the respect of intelligent people and the affection of children; to earn the appreciation of honest critics and endure the betrayal of false friends; to appreciate beauty, to find the best in others; to leave the world a little better; whether by a healthy child, a garden patch or a redeemed social condition; to know even one life has breathed easier because you have lived. This is the meaning of success."

http://forums.delphiforums.com/Godswrath/start 
(Watch ye therefore and Pray always)

  

Art used by permission by Pat Marvenko Smith, copyright 1992.
Click here to visit her "Revelation Illustrated" site.
   Pat Marvenko Smith


  And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and He that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He doth judge and make war. Rev 19:11

  
http://community.webshots.com/album/84317972ePlwdi
 
  
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  From:  Watchman77    Feb-20 4:08 am  
To:  seven7up unread  (98 of 167)  
 
  773.98 in reply to 773.32  
 
I am not sure I am understanding you here so I would like to ask you a question about Who you believe Jesus is if you don't mind.

Do you believe He is the Creator or do you believe He is created?

Love & Blessings 
YSICJ Earla

Ralph Waldo Emerson may have said it best:

"To laugh often and much; to win the respect of intelligent people and the affection of children; to earn the appreciation of honest critics and endure the betrayal of false friends; to appreciate beauty, to find the best in others; to leave the world a little better; whether by a healthy child, a garden patch or a redeemed social condition; to know even one life has breathed easier because you have lived. This is the meaning of success."

http://forums.delphiforums.com/Godswrath/start 
(Watch ye therefore and Pray always)

  

Art used by permission by Pat Marvenko Smith, copyright 1992.
Click here to visit her "Revelation Illustrated" site.
   Pat Marvenko Smith


  And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and He that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He doth judge and make war. Rev 19:11

  
http://community.webshots.com/album/84317972ePlwdi
 
  
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  From:  Watchman77    Feb-20 4:17 am  
To:  seven7up unread  (99 of 167)  
 
  773.99 in reply to 773.74  
 
this pretty much answers the question I asked you earlier and I agree 100% with you here... Jesus is NOT the Father, He and the Father are one in essence and desire/will, but they are two distinct beings as is the Holy Spirit... to deny this is to deny the truth of God's word.
Love & Blessings 
YSICJ Earla

Ralph Waldo Emerson may have said it best:

"To laugh often and much; to win the respect of intelligent people and the affection of children; to earn the appreciation of honest critics and endure the betrayal of false friends; to appreciate beauty, to find the best in others; to leave the world a little better; whether by a healthy child, a garden patch or a redeemed social condition; to know even one life has breathed easier because you have lived. This is the meaning of success."

http://forums.delphiforums.com/Godswrath/start 
(Watch ye therefore and Pray always)

  

Art used by permission by Pat Marvenko Smith, copyright 1992.
Click here to visit her "Revelation Illustrated" site.
   Pat Marvenko Smith


  And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and He that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He doth judge and make war. Rev 19:11

  
http://community.webshots.com/album/84317972ePlwdi
 
  
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   From:  Watchman77    Feb-20 4:23 am  
To:  SHEILAGIRL1    (100 of 167)  
 
  773.100 in reply to 773.75  
 
If you're not going to hell thru your own fault, who's fault is being held against you? I get real tired of non-christians criticizing my GOD. The answers to all your questions are in the Bible. Try reading it rather than critiquing something you have no knowledge about. Christians can disagree and discuss...no problem. I don't give the same leeway to non-christians that I give to my fellow-believers. WE have a right to be wrong, in error, untaught, whatever...we are still born-again believers. The Spirit teaches US at our own pace. WE are not all on the same page, but by GOD's grace, we're all in the same Book!

first off you have no right to call Seven a "non-christian" just because he doesn't agree with your brand of "christianity". and God is NOT your God exclusively, He is also Seven's God and personally it sounds to me like Seven has a much greater knowledge of God and His word than you do. Your religion is evil and it is not of God, it is of man.

Don't tell me who you will or won't worship. You don't have that choice. Either GOD placed you in Jesus on the cross and wrote your name in the Lamb's Book of Life before the foundation of the world, or he didn't. It's just that simple. Even babes can understand and receive that teaching. Only those who are reprobate, cannot.

Neither will I worship the evil god you speak of, He is not the God of the bible and He is not the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The god you speak of could not be any more evil if he were satan himself. 
And for the record, ALL men's names are written in the book of Life, it is the blotting out that we need be concerned with.

Love & Blessings 
YSICJ Earla

Ralph Waldo Emerson may have said it best:

"To laugh often and much; to win the respect of intelligent people and the affection of children; to earn the appreciation of honest critics and endure the betrayal of false friends; to appreciate beauty, to find the best in others; to leave the world a little better; whether by a healthy child, a garden patch or a redeemed social condition; to know even one life has breathed easier because you have lived. This is the meaning of success."

http://forums.delphiforums.com/Godswrath/start 
(Watch ye therefore and Pray always)

  

Art used by permission by Pat Marvenko Smith, copyright 1992.
Click here to visit her "Revelation Illustrated" site.
   Pat Marvenko Smith


  And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and He that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He doth judge and make war. Rev 19:11

  
http://community.webshots.com/album/84317972ePlwdi
 
  
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From:  Watchman77    Feb-20 4:25 am  
To:  ~Sassy~ (PARRISH24)    (101 of 167)  
 
  773.101 in reply to 773.76  
 
Yahoo. We can have hope just as we do in the Lord!

and those who are not the "elect" can just go to hell, right? How could you possibly want to worship a god that would create people for the sole purpose of sending them into eternal torment and suffering

Love & Blessings 
YSICJ Earla

Ralph Waldo Emerson may have said it best:

"To laugh often and much; to win the respect of intelligent people and the affection of children; to earn the appreciation of honest critics and endure the betrayal of false friends; to appreciate beauty, to find the best in others; to leave the world a little better; whether by a healthy child, a garden patch or a redeemed social condition; to know even one life has breathed easier because you have lived. This is the meaning of success."

http://forums.delphiforums.com/Godswrath/start 
(Watch ye therefore and Pray always)

  

Art used by permission by Pat Marvenko Smith, copyright 1992.
Click here to visit her "Revelation Illustrated" site.
   Pat Marvenko Smith


  And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and He that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He doth judge and make war. Rev 19:11

  
http://community.webshots.com/album/84317972ePlwdi
 
  
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  From:  Watchman77    Feb-20 4:36 am  
To:  seven7up unread  (102 of 167)  
 
  773.102 in reply to 773.89  
 
When the Bible says that God hardens people's hearts, it is quite simply a scribal error. I hate to break it to you, but the protestant Bible that you hold did not fall out of the sky and hit Martin Luther in the head free from error. Centuries and centuries of scribes and re-writing had a few negative results. There was a selection of the Books that people in the Catholic Church chose to put in it, then some were removed. Nevertheless, it is a magnificent and valuable tool to learn about God and His history dealing with man. Still, look at the inconsistency. Here it says that God hardened the heart. Ex. 14: 4, 17) I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go. (speaking of pharoah) 

just for the record, I do not believe that there is anything of importance that has been changed in the KJV. As far as "God hardening hearts" it should be pretty easy to understand that it only means He allows them to harden their own heart. God is not deliberately going around making people be evil and sinful, anyone who knows God KNOWS this. 
In an earlier post you said that you believe that God creates us all as innocent babies with a clean slate in a state of sinlessness. I wanted to tell you this is exactly what I believe too... I believe in universial salvation, but not "eternal" universial salvation. I believe we all start out saved and sanctified with a freewill to sin or live a holy righteous life. We either live by the spirit or by the flesh, if we live by the spirit we will inherit eternal life, if we live by the flesh we take a great chance of drawing back into perdition.

So I ask you this. Knowing the character of God, why would He create a soul out of nothing simply for the purpose of inflicting wrath upon that very same living breathing soul? 

Doesn't make much sense ... does it? 

Sure doesn't sound like the God I know and love... sure doesn't sound like a God that loved the WORLD so much that He sent His only Son to die for it, the god of calvanism sounds like the devil himself to me.

Love & Blessings 
YSICJ Earla

Ralph Waldo Emerson may have said it best:

"To laugh often and much; to win the respect of intelligent people and the affection of children; to earn the appreciation of honest critics and endure the betrayal of false friends; to appreciate beauty, to find the best in others; to leave the world a little better; whether by a healthy child, a garden patch or a redeemed social condition; to know even one life has breathed easier because you have lived. This is the meaning of success."

http://forums.delphiforums.com/Godswrath/start 
(Watch ye therefore and Pray always)

  

Art used by permission by Pat Marvenko Smith, copyright 1992.
Click here to visit her "Revelation Illustrated" site.
   Pat Marvenko Smith


  And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and He that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He doth judge and make war. Rev 19:11

  
http://community.webshots.com/album/84317972ePlwdi
 
  
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  From:  Watchman77    Feb-20 4:38 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (103 of 167)  
 
  773.103 in reply to 773.91  
 
   
 
Excellent Posting!!

David, I am truly surprised that you would consider the stuff that Sheila has posted as "excellent"

 

That goes for everyone who doesnt believe that the Bible is Gods spoken word. Dont bother trying to instruct me from it if you dont believe it and follow it yourself.

Seven never stated that he did not believe the bible is the written word of God... he was only pointing out that Sheila was misreading it when she claims that it was God that "hardened Pharoah's heart".
 

Love & Blessings 
YSICJ Earla

Ralph Waldo Emerson may have said it best:

"To laugh often and much; to win the respect of intelligent people and the affection of children; to earn the appreciation of honest critics and endure the betrayal of false friends; to appreciate beauty, to find the best in others; to leave the world a little better; whether by a healthy child, a garden patch or a redeemed social condition; to know even one life has breathed easier because you have lived. This is the meaning of success."

http://forums.delphiforums.com/Godswrath/start 
(Watch ye therefore and Pray always)

  

Art used by permission by Pat Marvenko Smith, copyright 1992.
Click here to visit her "Revelation Illustrated" site.
   Pat Marvenko Smith


  And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and He that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He doth judge and make war. Rev 19:11

  
http://community.webshots.com/album/84317972ePlwdi
 
  
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  From:  Watchman77    Feb-20 4:47 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (104 of 167)  
 
  773.104 in reply to 773.94  
 
Give it a rest.

 

The Bible is complete, accurate and dynamic.

 

You are attempting to limit its scope and then in your own self imposed restrictions and limitations on the Bible you then declare it to contradict.

I don't understand how you have come to this conclusion... I have not seen Seven show any disrespect for God's word, quite the contrary, he seems to be trying very hard to make sure it is rightly divided, and Sheila is not.

 

You give an inaccurate and therefore unfair portrayal of the Bible.

because he believes there might just be a grammical error in the printing? There are many good Jesus followers who think that is a possiblity. Although personally I don't believe there is anything there that should cause all the confusion that we see.

 

Your constant aggression and antagonism is outside of the scope of the Basic Christian forum so therefore I am adding you to the removed from the forum list.

If you believe that Seven is not "right for this forum" then I am afraid I am not right for it either, because I agreed with pretty much everything he has been saying... 
You know a short while back you wrote me and asked me to be a co-moderator for this forum and I told you why I didn't think I should, this thread is a perfect example of what I was telling you, I would have cut Sheila off a long time ago if I were a moderator.
One question I would like to ask if you don't mind, do you really believe that God could be this horrible evil being who creates billions of people just to watch them suffer in hell for eternity? this is the god of calvanism.

Love & Blessings 
YSICJ Earla

Ralph Waldo Emerson may have said it best:

"To laugh often and much; to win the respect of intelligent people and the affection of children; to earn the appreciation of honest critics and endure the betrayal of false friends; to appreciate beauty, to find the best in others; to leave the world a little better; whether by a healthy child, a garden patch or a redeemed social condition; to know even one life has breathed easier because you have lived. This is the meaning of success."

http://forums.delphiforums.com/Godswrath/start 
(Watch ye therefore and Pray always)

  

Art used by permission by Pat Marvenko Smith, copyright 1992.
Click here to visit her "Revelation Illustrated" site.
   Pat Marvenko Smith


  And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and He that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He doth judge and make war. Rev 19:11

  
http://community.webshots.com/album/84317972ePlwdi
 
  
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  From:  Watchman77    Feb-20 4:52 am  
To:  SHEILAGIRL1    (105 of 167)  
 
  773.105 in reply to 773.95  
 
   
 
It's not unusual for folks to create their own god, then rewrite Holy Scripture to reflect their beliefs.
which is what Calvin did

 Atheists are first-class at this sort of warfare, 
atheists don't rewrite the bible...

but people who "truly believe" in the god of their own creation
atheists don't believe in any "god"

 must, by all means, denigrate the Bible in order for their religion to make sense, even to themselves. 
Seven did not "denigrate the bible" only your warped and twisted interpretation of it.

It's old stuff and only bothers me in that young Christians can become confused, and that makes me angry. THIS IS THE VERY SAME RUSE SATAN USED IN THE GARDEN

why should it "bother you" IF they are the elect then it really shouldn't matter since they are "heaven bound" anyway. 
This religion makes me sick.
 

Love & Blessings 
YSICJ Earla

Ralph Waldo Emerson may have said it best:

"To laugh often and much; to win the respect of intelligent people and the affection of children; to earn the appreciation of honest critics and endure the betrayal of false friends; to appreciate beauty, to find the best in others; to leave the world a little better; whether by a healthy child, a garden patch or a redeemed social condition; to know even one life has breathed easier because you have lived. This is the meaning of success."

http://forums.delphiforums.com/Godswrath/start 
(Watch ye therefore and Pray always)

  

Art used by permission by Pat Marvenko Smith, copyright 1992.
Click here to visit her "Revelation Illustrated" site.
   Pat Marvenko Smith


  And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and He that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He doth judge and make war. Rev 19:11

  
http://community.webshots.com/album/84317972ePlwdi
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    Feb-20 7:55 am  
To:  Watchman77    (106 of 167)  
 
  773.106 in reply to 773.105  
 
Hi Watchman77,

 

Its always nice to see you posting.

 

This is a heated topic but still it is fun to discuss.

 

Seven7up is a Jehovah Witness and does not believe that Jesus is God in the flesh.

 

Like other cultists he is simply playing a word game where black means white and trying to cloak it in our own Christian terms. He is causing much confusion and strife on the forum and after months I finally decided to remove his forum access.

 

I know that others do not agree with the forum lockout policy but this is a Christian forum for Christians and there are many other forums that he might be welcomed at but for this forum I would really prefer to have it at the point of building up and edifying the Believers rather than the constant Delphi type of strife.

 

God Bless You,
David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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  From:  SHEILAGIRL1    Feb-20 9:02 am  
To:  Watchman77    (109 of 167)  
 
  773.109 in reply to 773.105  
 
>>why should it "bother you" IF they are the elect then it really shouldn't matter since they are "heaven bound" anyway<<

This is always how the argument ends: "Why do anything if GOD has already decided the issue?" BECAUSE GOD COMMANDS THAT WE CONTEND FOR THE FAITH ONCE DELIVERED TO THE APOSTLES. 

And PS: babies are NOT born innocent. They are born, not only with imputed sin, but are sinners (liars) from the womb! This is the reason Jesus did not have a human father. 

  
  
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  From:  SHEILAGIRL1    Feb-20 9:03 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (110 of 167)  
 
  773.110 in reply to 773.106  
 
A GODly decision. JW's are not Christians and have no place in a Christian forum, arguing with Christians! 

Amen.

  
  
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  From:  8320john1   Feb-20 10:12 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (111 of 167)  
 
  773.111 in reply to 773.106  
 
Personally I have no problem with cultists posting, but this is your forum. 
Iron sharpens iron.
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    Feb-20 10:32 am  
To:  8320john1   (112 of 167)  
 
  773.112 in reply to 773.111  
 
The problem is at least twofold.

 

Cultist are not interested in genuine debate only in spreading and recruiting for their cult  i.e. woks based, it is their version of works.

 

They post in deceit often they consider deceit an acceptable practice and pretend as much as possible to be Christian like so gullible Christians will tolerate and even support them.

 

Call me foolish for not wanting to have a forum of lies, discord, strife and deceit wrapped into false conversations that have only the intention of leading people astray.

 

God Bless You,
David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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  From:  8320john1   Feb-20 10:42 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (113 of 167)  
 
  773.113 in reply to 773.112  
 
But if a man is "out front" concerning his convictions, he is already unmasked. 
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    Feb-20 10:45 am  
To:  8320john1   (114 of 167)  
 
  773.114 in reply to 773.113  
 
Where is Seven7up really out front about it on this forum?



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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  From:  8320john1   Feb-20 10:49 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (115 of 167)  
 
  773.115 in reply to 773.114  
 
If he is noted as a JW, then he is exposed. 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    Feb-20 11:03 am  
To:  8320john1   (116 of 167)  
 
  773.116 in reply to 773.115  
 
Hum 

 

Obviously since you were unable to respond with any postings on this forum regarding his true position he is not well exposed i.e. like a signature representing his beliefs.

 

God Bless you,
David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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  From:  MSplits   Feb-20 1:36 pm  
To:  Watchman77    (117 of 167)  
 
  773.117 in reply to 773.101  
 
We must dig deeper into the whole of scripture and not just isolate passages discussing one side of this issue. 
"work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" (Philippians 2:12) 

"Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee." (1 Timothy 4:16) 

It is not to be thought that I have already achieved all this. I have not yet reached perfection, but I press on, hoping to take hold of that for which Christ once took hold of me. My friends, I do not reckon myself to have got hold of it yet. All I can say is this: forgetting what is behind me, and reaching out for that which lies ahead, I press towards the goal to win the prize which is God's call to the life above, in Christ Jesus. (Philippians 3:12-14 

Heb. 12: 15 lest any man fail of the grace of God. 




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited 2/20/2004 5:19:21 PM ET by MSPLITS 
  
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  From:  MSplits   Feb-20 2:00 pm  
To:  Watchman77    (118 of 167)  
 
  773.118 in reply to 773.98  
 
Some people don't know their cults very well. SevenUp clearly said that he believed Jesus to be Jehovah, God of the Old Testament. 
Jehovah's witnesses believe that Jesus is the Archangel Michael. Oh well, it was interesting while it lasted. 

 
  
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  From:  MSplits   Feb-20 2:10 pm  
To:  SHEILAGIRL1    (119 of 167)  
 
  773.119 in reply to 773.109  
 
SHEILA: babies are NOT born innocent. They are born, not only with imputed sin, but are sinners (liars) from the womb! This is the reason Jesus did not have a human father. 
Jesus taught concerning children: "of such is the kingdom of Heaven." He seems to disagree with you. 

Deut. 30: 19 therefore choose life. 
Josh. 24: 15 choose . . . whom ye will serve. 
Gen. 2: 16 Of every tree . . . thou mayest freely eat. 
Deut. 11: 27 blessing, if ye obey. 
1 Chr. 29: 9 with perfect heart they offered willingly to the Lord. 
1 Cor. 9: 17 if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward. 
1 Pet. 5: 2 feed the flock of God . . . not by constraint, but willingly. 
Lev. 1: 3 offer it of his own voluntary will. 
Prov. 1: 29 did not choose the fear of the Lord. 
Rom. 2: 6 render . . . according to his deeds. 
2 Cor. 5: 10 receive . . . according to that he hath done. 
Rev. 20: 12 dead were judged . . . according to their works. 

Gal 6: 7 Be not decieved; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. 

Consider 2 Pet. 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentence. See also 1 Timothy 2:3-4; 

This passage says that God is not willing that any should perish. If God forces his will upon us, that would mean that none would perish. 

Your reading and interpretation of the verses in Ezekiel 11 and 36 are ignorant of the Old testament speech, which has such things as God repenting Jer. 26: 13 1 Chr. 21: 15 . This is an utter contradiction if you take that speech literally Num. 23: 19 . 

How can you reconcile that evil (and those who choose to do it), ultimately come from God. Whether it be the scriptures you cite, or your interpretations of them, this is incorrect doctrine. Everything that is good comes from God. Nothing evil comes from God. 

Also, you seem to be one of those types that believes "once saved always saved." Let us look at Peter for a moment. 

2 Peter 2 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 

21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 

22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire. 

This shows a warning against those who believed and fell away. 

 
  
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   From:  MSplits   Feb-20 2:17 pm  
To:  SHEILAGIRL1    (120 of 167)  
 
  773.120 in reply to 773.109  
 
2 Peter 1 10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fail. 
We see that the calling from God is not sufficient. Peter asks us to "give diligence" in order to make our calling and election sure. 

1Peter 1: 22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently. 

This says that the saints had purified their souls through obedience. You must reconcile these scriptures with your doctrine. 

You can't blame Seven7up for what he believes. According to your doctrine, he believes only what God created him to believe. According to you, he only believes what God predestined him to believe and it is God who is hardening his heart. 

2 Pet. 3 15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 

16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 

17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own steadfastness. 

Your interpretations of Paul's words were anticipated by Peter, and he gave a warning against your type of error. If you give me a few days, I will show you how you do not understand Romans 8 and Paul's theology. 

 
  
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From:  MSplits   Feb-20 2:30 pm  
To:  SHEILAGIRL1    (121 of 167)  
 
  773.121 in reply to 773.109  
 
If the Bible teaches a "once saved always saved" theology, why do we find: 
Heb. 10: 26 sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge . . . no more sacrifice for sins. 

Gal. 5: 4 ye are fallen from grace. 
1 Tim. 1: 19 some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck. 
Heb. 6: 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance. 

In order to be forgiven, we must repent, confess, and forsake our sins. 

Ps. 32: 5 I acknowledged my sin . . . and thou forgavest. 
Luke 17: 3 if he repent, forgive him. 
2 Cor. 7: 10 godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation. 
Ezek. 16: 61 remember thy ways, and be ashamed. 
Ezek. 18: 30 Repent, and turn . . . from all your transgressions. 
Prov. 28: 13 whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy. 
Isa. 1: 16 put away the evil of your doings . . . cease to do evil. 

 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    Feb-20 8:39 pm  
To:  SHEILAGIRL1    (122 of 167)  
 
  773.122 in reply to 773.121  
 
From the profile info it looks like Msplits is really the banned Seven7up returning with a new logon.

 

God Bless you,
David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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  From:  ~Sassy~ (PARRISH24)    Feb-20 9:42 pm  
To:  Watchman77    (123 of 167)  
 
  773.123 in reply to 773.101  
 
First of all you seem to be assuming that I am a Calvanist and I am not so I am not sure what to make of your comment but since I do not know you I am not going to jump to conclusions on this issue and play a tit for tat with words as that would not be edifying or uplifting to either of us..

Sheila and I are sisters in Christ and friends but you are assuming because of our long time relationship of several years and our friendliness and love for one another as friends that we agree on everything? That also is not correct on your part!

You assumed wrong just like I do not agree with everything my born again brothers and sisters in the Catholic church believe but never the less, I love them and have many friends in that church as well.

I am not going to assume anything about you except just maybe you jumped to a hasty conclusion on me by my friendship with Sheila but that is okay. have a nice evvening anyway!




 

 

 
 
 
 
  
  
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  From:  SHEILAGIRL1    Feb-20 10:55 pm  
To:  MSplits unread  (124 of 167)  
 
  773.124 in reply to 773.119  
 
Dear Seven, I will not argue these precious things with you. Seek GOD while ye may and may he pour out his mercy upon you.
  
  
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  From:  SHEILAGIRL1    Feb-20 10:56 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (125 of 167)  
 
  773.125 in reply to 773.122  
 
LOL S/he is blind.
  
  
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  From:  SHEILAGIRL1    Feb-20 10:57 pm  
To:  ~Sassy~ (PARRISH24)    (126 of 167)  
 
  773.126 in reply to 773.123  
 
And I have no problem with any of your doctrines! I love you and we will share the love of Jesus for all eternity!
  
  
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  From:  ~Sassy~ (PARRISH24)    Feb-20 11:35 pm  
To:  SHEILAGIRL1    (127 of 167)  
 
  773.127 in reply to 773.126  
 
{{I love you too Sweetie!}} I just wish people would address us as individuals even though we hang out like the Bobsey twins LOL!



 

 

 

 
 
 
 
  
  
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  From:  SHEILAGIRL1    Feb-20 11:40 pm  
To:  ~Sassy~ (PARRISH24)    (128 of 167)  
 
  773.128 in reply to 773.127  
 
ROTFLOL

Aggie and Maggie! Laura and Maura! Sue and Dru!

TWINS!

  
  
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  From:  ~Sassy~ (PARRISH24)    Feb-21 12:05 am  
To:  SHEILAGIRL1    (129 of 167)  
 
  773.129 in reply to 773.128  
 
Frick and Frack even!



 

 

 

 
 
 
 
  
  
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  From:  Watchman77    Feb-21 2:53 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (130 of 167)  
 
  773.130 in reply to 773.106  
 
Hi Watchman77,

Hello David

 

Its always nice to see you posting.

 

This is a heated topic but still it is fun to discuss.

any topic can become "heated" if people are only trying to prove their point and do not care about what is true. Personally, I don't find it "fun to discuss" I find it very disheartening that there is such a belief as Calvanism out there and that people really believe that is how God really is.

 

Seven7up is a Jehovah Witness and does not believe that Jesus is God in the flesh.

I have spoken to many Jehovah Witnesses in my 20 year walk with the LORD and while I agree that their religion is messed up, IMHO it is not anymore messed up than Calvanism. Atleast God is a loving and forgiving God according to Jehovah Witnesses, but the god of Calvanism is an evil and wicked, hateful god. 
You would be surprised how many so-called "born-again christians" do not believe that Jesus is God, 

 

Like other cultists he is simply playing a word game where black means white and trying to cloak it in our own Christian terms. He is causing much confusion and strife on the forum and after months I finally decided to remove his forum access.

it is your forum, so it is your decision, and no offence but IMHO you locked out the wrong person. 

 

I know that others do not agree with the forum lockout policy but this is a Christian forum for Christians and there are many other forums that he might be welcomed at but for this forum I would really prefer to have it at the point of building up and edifying the Believers rather than the constant Delphi type of strife.

so for the record, do you consider Calvanism "christian" even though it makes God out as a evil wicked Creator that created billions of people for the sole purpose of condemning them to eternal suffering in hell?
I totally understand that you would prefer a place for "building up and edifying the Believers" but the garbage that Sheila is sprouting is not edifying nor does it build up anyone, it tears down those who calvanist do not consider the "elect" and could very well destroy the faith of a new believer. 
IF calvanism is right, then there is no point in the life and death of Jesus it was all a waste, because He died for ALL men, not just a few "elect" sinners.

as you know David according to many I am not a "christian"...  you were very supportive and encouraging to me when everyone was attacking me and I appreciate it very much. Don't you think that maybe it would be a better idea to allow this discussion to continue, by locking Seven out you seem to be taking Sheila's side of the issue because Seven has been no more disruptive or the cause of strife than she has, and even if he doesn't accept yet that Jesus is God, IMHO his religion is much closer to the truth than Sheila's is.

Love & Blessings 
YSICJ Earla

Ralph Waldo Emerson may have said it best:

"To laugh often and much; to win the respect of intelligent people and the affection of children; to earn the appreciation of honest critics and endure the betrayal of false friends; to appreciate beauty, to find the best in others; to leave the world a little better; whether by a healthy child, a garden patch or a redeemed social condition; to know even one life has breathed easier because you have lived. This is the meaning of success."

http://forums.delphiforums.com/Godswrath/start 
(Watch ye therefore and Pray always)

  

Art used by permission by Pat Marvenko Smith, copyright 1992.
Click here to visit her "Revelation Illustrated" site.
   Pat Marvenko Smith


  And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and He that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He doth judge and make war. Rev 19:11

  
http://community.webshots.com/album/84317972ePlwdi
 
  
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  From:  Watchman77    Feb-21 2:55 am  
To:  SHEILAGIRL1    (131 of 167)  
 
  773.131 in reply to 773.109  
 
>>why should it "bother you" IF they are the elect then it really shouldn't matter since they are "heaven bound" anyway<<

This is always how the argument ends: "Why do anything if GOD has already decided the issue?" BECAUSE GOD COMMANDS THAT WE CONTEND FOR THE FAITH ONCE DELIVERED TO THE APOSTLES. 

First IT IS NOT FAITH if it has already been decided, so IF Calvanism is right then there is no such thing as "faith"

And PS: babies are NOT born innocent. They are born, not only with imputed sin, but are sinners (liars) from the womb! This is the reason Jesus did not have a human father. 

as with everything else you are wrong.

Love & Blessings 
YSICJ Earla

Ralph Waldo Emerson may have said it best:

"To laugh often and much; to win the respect of intelligent people and the affection of children; to earn the appreciation of honest critics and endure the betrayal of false friends; to appreciate beauty, to find the best in others; to leave the world a little better; whether by a healthy child, a garden patch or a redeemed social condition; to know even one life has breathed easier because you have lived. This is the meaning of success."

http://forums.delphiforums.com/Godswrath/start 
(Watch ye therefore and Pray always)

  

Art used by permission by Pat Marvenko Smith, copyright 1992.
Click here to visit her "Revelation Illustrated" site.
   Pat Marvenko Smith


  And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and He that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He doth judge and make war. Rev 19:11

  
http://community.webshots.com/album/84317972ePlwdi
 
  
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  From:  Watchman77    Feb-21 2:56 am  
To:  SHEILAGIRL1    (132 of 167)  
 
  773.132 in reply to 773.110  
 
ofcourse you would think it was a godly decision because it chooses you over Seven, but your religion is not christian and according to your own words YOU should not be here arguing with christians
Love & Blessings 
YSICJ Earla

Ralph Waldo Emerson may have said it best:

"To laugh often and much; to win the respect of intelligent people and the affection of children; to earn the appreciation of honest critics and endure the betrayal of false friends; to appreciate beauty, to find the best in others; to leave the world a little better; whether by a healthy child, a garden patch or a redeemed social condition; to know even one life has breathed easier because you have lived. This is the meaning of success."

http://forums.delphiforums.com/Godswrath/start 
(Watch ye therefore and Pray always)

  

Art used by permission by Pat Marvenko Smith, copyright 1992.
Click here to visit her "Revelation Illustrated" site.
   Pat Marvenko Smith


  And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and He that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He doth judge and make war. Rev 19:11

  
http://community.webshots.com/album/84317972ePlwdi
 
  
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  From:  Watchman77    Feb-21 2:59 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (133 of 167)  
 
  773.133 in reply to 773.112  
 
They post in deceit often they consider deceit an acceptable practice and pretend as much as possible to be Christian like so gullible Christians will tolerate and even support them.

for the record, David I support anyone who is searching for the truth even if they haven't quite found it yet... I have a lot more problems with someone spouting off garbage like Sheila is and calling it the truth. Calvanism is a lie straight from hell and IT should not be promoted on a christian forum.


Call me foolish for not wanting to have a forum of lies, discord, strife and deceit wrapped into false conversations that have only the intention of leading people astray.

Do you really believe that Seven was "trying to lead people astray?" I didn't get that from his posts at all, IMHO he was only trying to correct and rebuke a doctrine that is NOT biblical.

 

Love & Blessings 
YSICJ Earla

Ralph Waldo Emerson may have said it best:

"To laugh often and much; to win the respect of intelligent people and the affection of children; to earn the appreciation of honest critics and endure the betrayal of false friends; to appreciate beauty, to find the best in others; to leave the world a little better; whether by a healthy child, a garden patch or a redeemed social condition; to know even one life has breathed easier because you have lived. This is the meaning of success."

http://forums.delphiforums.com/Godswrath/start 
(Watch ye therefore and Pray always)

  

Art used by permission by Pat Marvenko Smith, copyright 1992.
Click here to visit her "Revelation Illustrated" site.
   Pat Marvenko Smith


  And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and He that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He doth judge and make war. Rev 19:11

  
http://community.webshots.com/album/84317972ePlwdi



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited 2/21/2004 6:02:41 AM ET by Watchman77 
  
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  From:  Watchman77    Feb-21 3:04 am  
To:  MSplits unread  (134 of 167)  
 
  773.134 in reply to 773.117  
 
In a latter post Sheila calls you Seven.... please be honest with me Are you Seven?
Love & Blessings 
YSICJ Earla

Ralph Waldo Emerson may have said it best:

"To laugh often and much; to win the respect of intelligent people and the affection of children; to earn the appreciation of honest critics and endure the betrayal of false friends; to appreciate beauty, to find the best in others; to leave the world a little better; whether by a healthy child, a garden patch or a redeemed social condition; to know even one life has breathed easier because you have lived. This is the meaning of success."

http://forums.delphiforums.com/Godswrath/start 
(Watch ye therefore and Pray always)

  

Art used by permission by Pat Marvenko Smith, copyright 1992.
Click here to visit her "Revelation Illustrated" site.
   Pat Marvenko Smith


  And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and He that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He doth judge and make war. Rev 19:11

  
http://community.webshots.com/album/84317972ePlwdi
 
  
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  From:  Watchman77    Feb-21 3:08 am  
To:  MSplits unread  (135 of 167)  
 
  773.135 in reply to 773.118  
 
Some people don't know their cults very well. SevenUp clearly said that he believed Jesus to be Jehovah, God of the Old Testament. 

I have yet to see anything that Seven has said that would show him to be a Jehovah Witness... and since he got locked out before he could answer my question I will assume that he is not... because the things he has said do not sound like Jehovah Witness stuff to me and I have talked with several over the years.

Jehovah's witnesses believe that Jesus is the Archangel Michael. Oh well, it was interesting while it lasted. 

you are correct... Jehovah Witness believe that Jesus is the Archangel Michael, the "brother" of Lucifer...

 

Love & Blessings 
YSICJ Earla

Ralph Waldo Emerson may have said it best:

"To laugh often and much; to win the respect of intelligent people and the affection of children; to earn the appreciation of honest critics and endure the betrayal of false friends; to appreciate beauty, to find the best in others; to leave the world a little better; whether by a healthy child, a garden patch or a redeemed social condition; to know even one life has breathed easier because you have lived. This is the meaning of success."

http://forums.delphiforums.com/Godswrath/start 
(Watch ye therefore and Pray always)

  

Art used by permission by Pat Marvenko Smith, copyright 1992.
Click here to visit her "Revelation Illustrated" site.
   Pat Marvenko Smith


  And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and He that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He doth judge and make war. Rev 19:11

  
http://community.webshots.com/album/84317972ePlwdi
 
  
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  From:  Watchman77    Feb-21 3:10 am  
To:  MSplits unread  (136 of 167)  
 
  773.136 in reply to 773.120  
 
You can't blame Seven7up for what he believes. According to your doctrine, he believes only what God created him to believe. According to you, he only believes what God predestined him to believe and it is God who is hardening his heart. 

exactly, so according to Calvanism, God is to blame for all the "unbelief"

Love & Blessings 
YSICJ Earla

Ralph Waldo Emerson may have said it best:

"To laugh often and much; to win the respect of intelligent people and the affection of children; to earn the appreciation of honest critics and endure the betrayal of false friends; to appreciate beauty, to find the best in others; to leave the world a little better; whether by a healthy child, a garden patch or a redeemed social condition; to know even one life has breathed easier because you have lived. This is the meaning of success."

http://forums.delphiforums.com/Godswrath/start 
(Watch ye therefore and Pray always)

  

Art used by permission by Pat Marvenko Smith, copyright 1992.
Click here to visit her "Revelation Illustrated" site.
   Pat Marvenko Smith


  And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and He that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He doth judge and make war. Rev 19:11

  
http://community.webshots.com/album/84317972ePlwdi
 
  
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  From:  Watchman77    Feb-21 3:37 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (137 of 167)  
 
  773.137 in reply to 773.122  
 
From the profile info it looks like Msplits is really the banned Seven7up returning with a new logon.

while it is entirely possible that Msplits is really the banned Seven, I do not see how you could come to this conclussion by their profiles... there is nothing there to base this assumption on.

Love & Blessings 
YSICJ Earla

Ralph Waldo Emerson may have said it best:

"To laugh often and much; to win the respect of intelligent people and the affection of children; to earn the appreciation of honest critics and endure the betrayal of false friends; to appreciate beauty, to find the best in others; to leave the world a little better; whether by a healthy child, a garden patch or a redeemed social condition; to know even one life has breathed easier because you have lived. This is the meaning of success."

http://forums.delphiforums.com/Godswrath/start 
(Watch ye therefore and Pray always)

  

Art used by permission by Pat Marvenko Smith, copyright 1992.
Click here to visit her "Revelation Illustrated" site.
   Pat Marvenko Smith


  And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and He that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He doth judge and make war. Rev 19:11

  
http://community.webshots.com/album/84317972ePlwdi
 
  
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  From:  Watchman77    Feb-21 3:47 am  
To:  ~Sassy~ (PARRISH24)    (138 of 167)  
 
  773.138 in reply to 773.123  
 
   
 
First of all you seem to be assuming that I am a Calvanist and I am not so I am not sure what to make of your comment but since I do not know you I am not going to jump to conclusions on this issue and play a tit for tat with words as that would not be edifying or uplifting to either of us..

first I do apologize for "assuming" anything, and I will admit I did assume that BUT it was because of your post, not because you were friends with Sheila, but because it sounded like you were agreeing with her and encouraging her in her wrong doctrine. 

Sheila and I are sisters in Christ and friends but you are assuming because of our long time relationship of several years and our friendliness and love for one another as friends that we agree on everything? That also is not correct on your part!

no I did not assume this because of your "long time relationship" because I had no idea that you two have been friends for a long time... I assumed it because it sounded like you were agreeing with and encouraging her in what she was saying.

You assumed wrong just like I do not agree with everything my born again brothers and sisters in the Catholic church believe but never the less, I love them and have many friends in that church as well.

so basically what you are saying is that their "doctrine" does not have to be right for you to love them.... I couldn't agree with you more here, but what about Seven, does he fit into this "love" anywhere?

I am not going to assume anything about you except just maybe you jumped to a hasty conclusion on me by my friendship with Sheila but that is okay. have a nice evvening anyway!

as I said before, yes I did "jump to a hasty conclusion" but it was because of your words, not because of your friendship with Sheila. 
So since you are not a "Calvanist" then you do not believe in the "same" God as Sheila believes in, because that god is not the God of the bible
 

Love & Blessings 
YSICJ Earla

Ralph Waldo Emerson may have said it best:

"To laugh often and much; to win the respect of intelligent people and the affection of children; to earn the appreciation of honest critics and endure the betrayal of false friends; to appreciate beauty, to find the best in others; to leave the world a little better; whether by a healthy child, a garden patch or a redeemed social condition; to know even one life has breathed easier because you have lived. This is the meaning of success."

http://forums.delphiforums.com/Godswrath/start 
(Watch ye therefore and Pray always)

  

Art used by permission by Pat Marvenko Smith, copyright 1992.
Click here to visit her "Revelation Illustrated" site.
   Pat Marvenko Smith


  And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and He that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He doth judge and make war. Rev 19:11

  
http://community.webshots.com/album/84317972ePlwdi
 
  
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  From:  8320john1   Feb-21 4:49 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (139 of 167)  
 
  773.139 in reply to 773.116  
 
How then did you know him to be a JW?? 
"Watchwoman" seems to have said she agreed with him. Is she a JW? 



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited 2/21/2004 7:52:11 AM ET by 8320JOHN1 
  
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   From:  David (DavidABrown)    Feb-21 10:12 am  
To:  Watchman77    (140 of 167)  
 
  773.140 in reply to 773.138  
 
Hi Watchman,

 

You are really giving it one of the better campaigns to bring back a banned person that the forum has had, sorry though.

 

If you and John8320 would like to read the Is Jesus God thread on the forum you will see that both Seven7up and Msplits are both posting the same material and it is an aggressive attempt to deny the Deity of Jesus and it argues aggressively against the Trinity (Father, Son, Holy Spirit).

 

I will be praying for your fire situation. We just went through devastating fires here in Southern California.

 

God Bless You Always,
David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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From:  ~Sassy~ (PARRISH24)    Feb-21 11:50 am  
To:  Watchman77    (141 of 167)  
 
  773.141 in reply to 773.138  
 
 This is what the post said that I was responding to:

Ahhhhhhh! Spring!

I am glad you are not assuming anything. I believe that we do believe in the same God but that we differ on some of the meanings of some scripture.

I will explain this more further as soon as I can get to some of my notes on this subject but right at the moment I am having a very frustrating experience because I can not get into my favorites one iota and I do not have time to search for all the answers I would like to explain to you backed up with scripture so I pray this will work soon. I am going to call my tech support to see what the problem is because if I have lost everything in my favorites...I think I may have to have  a big pity party later. But I will get to answering your post honestly a bit later when I get the technical proplems all worked out here.




 

 

 
 
 
 
  
  
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  From:  SHEILAGIRL1    Feb-21 2:31 pm  
To:  ~Sassy~ (PARRISH24)    (142 of 167)  
 
  773.142 in reply to 773.129  
 
LOL
  
  
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  From:  SHEILAGIRL1    Feb-21 2:36 pm  
To:  Watchman77    (143 of 167)  
 
  773.143 in reply to 773.133  
 
You sound just like the Pharisees, W. Jesus called them the children of the devil. I won't be that straight forward, but your theology is just as wrong.
  
  
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  From:  SHEILAGIRL1    Feb-21 2:41 pm  
To:  Watchman77    (144 of 167)  
 
  773.144 in reply to 773.138  
 
But you support Seven who doesn't believe in the deity of Christ? Do you believe in the deity of Christ?
  
  
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  From:  Watchman77    Feb-21 3:46 pm  
To:  8320john1   (145 of 167)  
 
  773.145 in reply to 773.139  
 
No John, I am not a Jehovah Witness and I believe very much in the holy trinity of God consisting of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. 
I have spoken to many Jehovah Witnesses in my life, they use to come to my house and try to convert me until I challenged them to prove to me that Jesus was not God and I would prove to them that Jesus was God by what the bible says, they accepted the challenge but never came back.
Love & Blessings 
YSICJ Earla

Ralph Waldo Emerson may have said it best:

"To laugh often and much; to win the respect of intelligent people and the affection of children; to earn the appreciation of honest critics and endure the betrayal of false friends; to appreciate beauty, to find the best in others; to leave the world a little better; whether by a healthy child, a garden patch or a redeemed social condition; to know even one life has breathed easier because you have lived. This is the meaning of success."

http://forums.delphiforums.com/Godswrath/start 
(Watch ye therefore and Pray always)

  

Art used by permission by Pat Marvenko Smith, copyright 1992.
Click here to visit her "Revelation Illustrated" site.
   Pat Marvenko Smith


  And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and He that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He doth judge and make war. Rev 19:11

  
http://community.webshots.com/album/84317972ePlwdi
 
  
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  From:  8320john1   Feb-21 3:51 pm  
To:  Watchman77    (146 of 167)  
 
  773.146 in reply to 773.145  
 
But you said you and 7Up were on the same channel in doctrine. 
  
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  From:  Watchman77    Feb-21 3:52 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (147 of 167)  
 
  773.147 in reply to 773.140  
 
Hi Watchman,

 

You are really giving it one of the better campaigns to bring back a banned person that the forum has had, sorry though.

I respect your decision and I will drop the matter in respect for you.

 

If you and John8320 would like to read the Is Jesus God thread on the forum you will see that both Seven7up and Msplits are both posting the same material and it is an aggressive attempt to deny the Deity of Jesus and it argues aggressively against the Trinity (Father, Son, Holy Spirit).

yes thank you I would like to read it and I will go there from here and do just that.

 

I will be praying for your fire situation. We just went through devastating fires here in Southern California.

thank you for the prayers, they are much appreciated. Fires are very common around here at this time of year because everything is so dry... our spring rains will be coming soon and we won't have to worry about it for much longer... 
Yes I watch the fires in Calif and prayed for all those who were effected by them, now I hear those very same places are having problems with mudslides because all the trees and overgrowth is gone... it is so very sad.

Love & Blessings 
YSICJ Earla

Ralph Waldo Emerson may have said it best:

"To laugh often and much; to win the respect of intelligent people and the affection of children; to earn the appreciation of honest critics and endure the betrayal of false friends; to appreciate beauty, to find the best in others; to leave the world a little better; whether by a healthy child, a garden patch or a redeemed social condition; to know even one life has breathed easier because you have lived. This is the meaning of success."

http://forums.delphiforums.com/Godswrath/start 
(Watch ye therefore and Pray always)

  

Art used by permission by Pat Marvenko Smith, copyright 1992.
Click here to visit her "Revelation Illustrated" site.
   Pat Marvenko Smith


  And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and He that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He doth judge and make war. Rev 19:11

  
http://community.webshots.com/album/84317972ePlwdi
 
  
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  From:  Watchman77    Feb-21 3:58 pm  
To:  ~Sassy~ (PARRISH24)    (148 of 167)  
 
  773.148 in reply to 773.141  
 
I am glad you are not assuming anything. I believe that we do believe in the same God but that we differ on some of the meanings of some scripture.

actually I did assume you were a Calvanist by your supportive post to Sheila, just like some could assume I was a Jehovah Witness because of my supportive posts to Seven, but I have not read anything that has made me think that Seven was a Jehovah Witness, but David has directed me to a thread that he says does, so I will read it and maybe have a better prospective of what Seven really does believe, but for the record even if Seven is a Jehovah Witness that still doesn't make Calvanism any less ungodly.

I will explain this more further as soon as I can get to some of my notes on this subject but right at the moment I am having a very frustrating experience because I can not get into my favorites one iota and I do not have time to search for all the answers I would like to explain to you backed up with scripture so I pray this will work soon. I am going to call my tech support to see what the problem is because if I have lost everything in my favorites...I think I may have to have  a big pity party later. But I will get to answering your post honestly a bit later when I get the technical proplems all worked out here.

I am sorry, I do not mean to push you on the subject, but it is actually very simple, either you believe that God is like the god that Calvanist worship, who "elect" people to go to hell or He is not.

Love & Blessings 
YSICJ Earla

Ralph Waldo Emerson may have said it best:

"To laugh often and much; to win the respect of intelligent people and the affection of children; to earn the appreciation of honest critics and endure the betrayal of false friends; to appreciate beauty, to find the best in others; to leave the world a little better; whether by a healthy child, a garden patch or a redeemed social condition; to know even one life has breathed easier because you have lived. This is the meaning of success."

http://forums.delphiforums.com/Godswrath/start 
(Watch ye therefore and Pray always)

  

Art used by permission by Pat Marvenko Smith, copyright 1992.
Click here to visit her "Revelation Illustrated" site.
   Pat Marvenko Smith


  And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and He that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He doth judge and make war. Rev 19:11

  
http://community.webshots.com/album/84317972ePlwdi
 
  
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  From:  Watchman77    Feb-21 4:02 pm  
To:  SHEILAGIRL1    (149 of 167)  
 
  773.149 in reply to 773.143  
 
please explain exactly how I sound like a Pharisee... you are the one who makes heaven so small that God can only take a handful of "elect sinners" that is the religion of the Pharisees, a religion of "election" with a license to sin.
Love & Blessings 
YSICJ Earla

Ralph Waldo Emerson may have said it best:

"To laugh often and much; to win the respect of intelligent people and the affection of children; to earn the appreciation of honest critics and endure the betrayal of false friends; to appreciate beauty, to find the best in others; to leave the world a little better; whether by a healthy child, a garden patch or a redeemed social condition; to know even one life has breathed easier because you have lived. This is the meaning of success."

http://forums.delphiforums.com/Godswrath/start 
(Watch ye therefore and Pray always)

  

Art used by permission by Pat Marvenko Smith, copyright 1992.
Click here to visit her "Revelation Illustrated" site.
   Pat Marvenko Smith


  And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and He that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He doth judge and make war. Rev 19:11

  
http://community.webshots.com/album/84317972ePlwdi
 
  
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  From:  Watchman77    Feb-21 4:03 pm  
To:  SHEILAGIRL1    (150 of 167)  
 
  773.150 in reply to 773.144  
 
I have not heard him say that since he was locked out before he got a chance to answer my questions.
Love & Blessings 
YSICJ Earla

Ralph Waldo Emerson may have said it best:

"To laugh often and much; to win the respect of intelligent people and the affection of children; to earn the appreciation of honest critics and endure the betrayal of false friends; to appreciate beauty, to find the best in others; to leave the world a little better; whether by a healthy child, a garden patch or a redeemed social condition; to know even one life has breathed easier because you have lived. This is the meaning of success."

http://forums.delphiforums.com/Godswrath/start 
(Watch ye therefore and Pray always)

  

Art used by permission by Pat Marvenko Smith, copyright 1992.
Click here to visit her "Revelation Illustrated" site.
   Pat Marvenko Smith


  And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and He that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He doth judge and make war. Rev 19:11

  
http://community.webshots.com/album/84317972ePlwdi
 
  
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  From:  Watchman77    Feb-21 4:06 pm  
To:  8320john1   (151 of 167)  
 
  773.151 in reply to 773.146  
 
actually what I said, was that so far what I had read that he has posted I have agree pretty much with. Much more so than what Sheila has posted. I have not read the thread that David suggested yet, I may change my mind after I do.
Love & Blessings 
YSICJ Earla

Ralph Waldo Emerson may have said it best:

"To laugh often and much; to win the respect of intelligent people and the affection of children; to earn the appreciation of honest critics and endure the betrayal of false friends; to appreciate beauty, to find the best in others; to leave the world a little better; whether by a healthy child, a garden patch or a redeemed social condition; to know even one life has breathed easier because you have lived. This is the meaning of success."

http://forums.delphiforums.com/Godswrath/start 
(Watch ye therefore and Pray always)

  

Art used by permission by Pat Marvenko Smith, copyright 1992.
Click here to visit her "Revelation Illustrated" site.
   Pat Marvenko Smith


  And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and He that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He doth judge and make war. Rev 19:11

  
http://community.webshots.com/album/84317972ePlwdi
 
  
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  From:  8320john1   Feb-21 4:20 pm  
To:  Watchman77    (152 of 167)  
 
  773.152 in reply to 773.151  
 
Okay. But I agree far more with what Sheila has posted rather than 7Up...guess why??? :)- 
 
  
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  From:  Watchman77    Feb-21 4:31 pm  
To:  8320john1   (153 of 167)  
 
  773.153 in reply to 773.152  
 
because she believes that Jesus is God and he doesn't? 

I just finished reading the thread that David was talking about and it does appear that Seven may not believe that Jesus is God, but I know a lot of people who believe themselves to be born-again christians who think that Jesus is JUST the Son of God and not actually God Himself. They do not understand the concept of the "Son of God" would be God, just like the "Son of man" would be man.

Love & Blessings 
YSICJ Earla

Ralph Waldo Emerson may have said it best:

"To laugh often and much; to win the respect of intelligent people and the affection of children; to earn the appreciation of honest critics and endure the betrayal of false friends; to appreciate beauty, to find the best in others; to leave the world a little better; whether by a healthy child, a garden patch or a redeemed social condition; to know even one life has breathed easier because you have lived. This is the meaning of success."

http://forums.delphiforums.com/Godswrath/start 
(Watch ye therefore and Pray always)

  

Art used by permission by Pat Marvenko Smith, copyright 1992.
Click here to visit her "Revelation Illustrated" site.
   Pat Marvenko Smith


  And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and He that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He doth judge and make war. Rev 19:11

  
http://community.webshots.com/album/84317972ePlwdi
 
  
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  From:  SHEILAGIRL1    Feb-21 4:40 pm  
To:  Watchman77    (154 of 167)  
 
  773.154 in reply to 773.149  
 
This is my last post to you. I will not cast pearls before swine. You are not an honest seeker and you are not one who has invested any time in studying the scriptures. You are like the Pharisees because they thot they could garner some sort of credit with GOD by pretending to obey the Laws. GOD blinded them to the Truth of the Person and Work of Jesus Christ. So be it.

  
  
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  From:  Watchman77    Feb-21 5:42 pm  
To:  SHEILAGIRL1    (155 of 167)  
 
  773.155 in reply to 773.154  
 
This is my last post to you. I will not cast pearls before swine. You are not an honest seeker and you are not one who has invested any time in studying the scriptures. You are like the Pharisees because they thot they could garner some sort of credit with GOD by pretending to obey the Laws. GOD blinded them to the Truth of the Person and Work of Jesus Christ. So be it.

so I guess by your standards I am one of the "un-elect" or those "elected" for eternal torment. you have no pearls to cast and your ignorance of scripture makes me care very little about what you think. I trust 100% in the saving grace of Almighty God and free gift given to ALL men through Jesus Christ. Not in some mean and vengeful god that chooses to torture the majority of his creation in eternal torment.

I have wasted enough time on your ignorance, if you wanted to know the truth, you would know it but you choose blindness and ignorance because it supports your superior attitude, feeding your elitism. People like you make me sick, your kind will be those "spued" from the mouth of God because of your vileness. I have no more time to waste with you.

Love & Blessings 
YSICJ Earla

Ralph Waldo Emerson may have said it best:

"To laugh often and much; to win the respect of intelligent people and the affection of children; to earn the appreciation of honest critics and endure the betrayal of false friends; to appreciate beauty, to find the best in others; to leave the world a little better; whether by a healthy child, a garden patch or a redeemed social condition; to know even one life has breathed easier because you have lived. This is the meaning of success."

http://forums.delphiforums.com/Godswrath/start 
(Watch ye therefore and Pray always)

  

Art used by permission by Pat Marvenko Smith, copyright 1992.
Click here to visit her "Revelation Illustrated" site.
   Pat Marvenko Smith


  And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and He that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He doth judge and make war. Rev 19:11

  
http://community.webshots.com/album/84317972ePlwdi
 
  
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  From:  Watchman77    Feb-21 5:51 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (156 of 167)  
 
  773.156 in reply to 773.154  
 
David if people like Sheila are the type of people who are welcomed around here and her "opinions" are considered "excellent" to you, then I really think it is time for me to leave the forum because I find her and her religion very offensive and an affront to the cross of Jesus Christ. Her kind of hatred makes me physically sick and I cannot remain in the presence of it by remaining on the forum.

Please do not take this as a threat or ultimatum, because that is not what it is. If you really believe that she is in accord to the way you believe then it is your right to support and encourage her beliefs, but for me to stay here would result in only one thing and that would be to bring discord to your forum and I will not do that... so I think it would be best if I do not participate in this forum anymore... 

Love & Blessings 
YSICJ Earla

Ralph Waldo Emerson may have said it best:

"To laugh often and much; to win the respect of intelligent people and the affection of children; to earn the appreciation of honest critics and endure the betrayal of false friends; to appreciate beauty, to find the best in others; to leave the world a little better; whether by a healthy child, a garden patch or a redeemed social condition; to know even one life has breathed easier because you have lived. This is the meaning of success."

http://forums.delphiforums.com/Godswrath/start 
(Watch ye therefore and Pray always)

  

Art used by permission by Pat Marvenko Smith, copyright 1992.
Click here to visit her "Revelation Illustrated" site.
   Pat Marvenko Smith


  And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and He that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He doth judge and make war. Rev 19:11

  
http://community.webshots.com/album/84317972ePlwdi
 
  
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  From:  SHEILAGIRL1    Feb-21 6:10 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (157 of 167)  
 
  773.157 in reply to 773.156  
 
David, I hope you got my email. I was already rejected by the forum she represents and that's okay. This is the norm for me. *G* It hurts, but only my flesh, not my spirit. The majority of my friends and loved ones do not adhere to all 5 points and that's never been a problem for me. What hurts is for this poster to call GOD mean, vile names and to denigrate the grace of GOD. Attacking GOD is not the way to learn truth and I've never seen a person as jealous of grace as this poster.

I'd be pleased to stay, but not at the expense of the peace and civility of your forum.

  
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    Feb-21 11:59 pm  
To:  SHEILAGIRL1    (158 of 167)  
 
  773.158 in reply to 773.157  
 
Hi sheilagirl1,

I checked my email before coming to the forum and replied to your email.

 

In short I said that you are a Blessing and are already a very precious Christian sister to me.

 

You are always welcome at the forum.

God Bless you,
David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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  From:  SHEILAGIRL1    Feb-22 12:11 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (159 of 167)  
 
  773.159 in reply to 773.158  
 
I'll go check my mail right away.

Thank you, dear brother. 

  
  
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   From:  David (DavidABrown)    Feb-22 12:11 am  
To:  Watchman77    (160 of 167)  
 
  773.160 in reply to 773.137  
 
Hi Watchma77,

 

It is always a blessing to have you on the forum.

 

Thats the problem with some of these topics is that they cause unnessicary division, And this is just such a topic.

 

You are always welcome here I value your input and more importantly I value our friendship.

 

God Bless you always,
David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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Message 161 of 167 was Deleted    



  From:  David (DavidABrown)    Feb-22 6:36 pm  
To:  ALL   (162 of 167)  
 
  773.162 in reply to 773.160  
 
moving on ...


David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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  From:  Watchman77    Feb-23 4:54 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (163 of 167)  
 
  773.163 in reply to 773.162  
 
David you talk a good game, but when it comes down to it you are not sincere... you censor me and let Sheila accuse me of all kinds of things you know are not true... obviously you believe in the same evil god she does and you two believe you are the elect to salvation and I am the elect to damnation, so obviously this is no place for me.... 

moving on.....

edited to say I honestly don't know why I bothered to write this because you will probably delete it anyway...

Love & Blessings 
YSICJ Earla

Ralph Waldo Emerson may have said it best:

"To laugh often and much; to win the respect of intelligent people and the affection of children; to earn the appreciation of honest critics and endure the betrayal of false friends; to appreciate beauty, to find the best in others; to leave the world a little better; whether by a healthy child, a garden patch or a redeemed social condition; to know even one life has breathed easier because you have lived. This is the meaning of success."

http://forums.delphiforums.com/Godswrath/start 
(Watch ye therefore and Pray always)

  

Art used by permission by Pat Marvenko Smith, copyright 1992.
Click here to visit her "Revelation Illustrated" site.
   Pat Marvenko Smith


  And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and He that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He doth judge and make war. Rev 19:11

  
http://community.webshots.com/album/84317972ePlwdi



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited 2/23/2004 7:56:57 AM ET by Watchman77 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    Feb-23 12:11 pm  
To:  Watchman77    (164 of 167)  
 
  773.164 in reply to 773.163  
 
Hi Watchman77,

 

Thank you for posting your heart.

 

Actually I didnt start this topic and dont even really want it on the forum for this very reason it causes unnecessary and untrue stereotyping.

 

Sheilagirl1 and I have already agreed to disagree in part on this topic and Im fine with that because we both know that when Jesus is fully revealed we will learn more but until then and especially with our limited perspectives we all need to just remain Graceful to one another.

 

Really, this topic to me seems exactly as silly as arguing over whether a glass of water is  full or  empty or like arguing over the color of orange. There are personal preferences involved in making the decision.

 

God Bless you,
David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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  From:  Watchman77    Feb-24 4:48 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (165 of 167)  
 
  773.165 in reply to 773.164  
 
Thank you for posting your heart.

and thank you for receiving it from the heart...

 

Actually I didnt start this topic and dont even really want it on the forum for this very reason it causes unnecessary and untrue stereotyping.

David there is no point in moderating a forum if you do not intend to allow controversial issues to be discussed and this is a very important topic because it touches on the very character of God... if we are not presenting a correct view of Him how are people suppose to see Him in us? There is one thing that God says that others will know us by, and that is LOVE... that is because when we allow the love of God to grow in us we are allowing the very character of God to grow in us, proving that we are His obedient children... He tells us to grow in love for one another, He tells us that we will be perfected in love, He tells us that perfect love casteth out all fear, He tells us to love our enemies and to feed and cloth them, nowhere does He tell us to hate anyone, because when we hate we are revealing the character of satan in our hearts. 
The character that Sheila is trying to put on God is actually that of satan, it is blasphemy and it should not be tolerated on a "christian" forum. If you refuse to let Seven promote Jehovah's Witness, then you should not allow Sheila to promote her god of hate.

 

Sheilagirl1 and I have already agreed to disagree in part on this topic and Im fine with that because we both know that when Jesus is fully revealed we will learn more but until then and especially with our limited perspectives we all need to just remain Graceful to one another.

how can you agree to such a thing... that is not unity, that is compromise at the expense of the truth. She does not KNOW Jesus, Jesus is pure love and forgiveness, He is not a evil, wicked Creator that creates a man for no other purpose than to toss in hell when He is done with him.

 

Really, this topic to me seems exactly as silly as arguing over whether a glass of water is  full or  empty or like arguing over the color of orange. There are personal preferences involved in making the decision.

I am sorry David, but this is very confusing to me? Do you really believe that when the very character of God is called into question that it is unimportant? Especially when WE are suppose to be witnesses to that character? David what you are allowing here in this forum by Sheila is nothing short of blasphemy, she is denying the very power of God to love enough that He can save ALL men... she is claiming that it was never His intent to save ALL men, even though that is exactly what the bible says and that is exactly what He did through the atoning death of Jesus Christ. If it is allowed to continue, I can no longer come here... like I said that is not an ultimatum, it is just a simple fact. 
Having said that, I say... "Choose you this day, Who you will serve." will it be a god of hate and elitism or a God of love and forgiveness?

Love & Blessings 
YSICJ Earla

Ralph Waldo Emerson may have said it best:

"To laugh often and much; to win the respect of intelligent people and the affection of children; to earn the appreciation of honest critics and endure the betrayal of false friends; to appreciate beauty, to find the best in others; to leave the world a little better; whether by a healthy child, a garden patch or a redeemed social condition; to know even one life has breathed easier because you have lived. This is the meaning of success."

http://forums.delphiforums.com/Godswrath/start 
(Watch ye therefore and Pray always)

  

Art used by permission by Pat Marvenko Smith, copyright 1992.
Click here to visit her "Revelation Illustrated" site.
   Pat Marvenko Smith


  And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and He that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He doth judge and make war. Rev 19:11

  
http://community.webshots.com/album/84317972ePlwdi
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    Feb-24 6:39 am  
To:  Watchman77    (166 of 167)  
 
  773.166 in reply to 773.165  
 
Hi Watchman77,

 

Im wondering how I can have a forum and allow fellow Christians to call each other names. That I cant do.

 

The God that we all need to serve and follow is the God of the Bible, Jesus Christ. Jesus the very one who purposely assembled a tax collector, a zealot, and others who did not agree individually to follow Himself and to represent Him as His Apostles to a needing and dieing world.

 

I see you both as Apostles of Jesus Christ each having valuable gifts and talents bestowed upon you by the precious blood and Holy Spirit of God.

 

We as Christians do need to focus on what we have in Jesus and to build on that and not to waste time, energy and emotions attacking one another.

 

Besides if there are any differences among us they are to be addressed and resolved through prayer for one another. It is though prayer and the guidance of the Holy Spirit that decisions are to be made and followed and not by the arguing and reasoning of man.

 

Philippians 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

 

Our Christian heritage is rich, there is much to discuss regarding matters of heaven and of earth and my hope and prayer is that you will remain and continue to contribute to the forum.

 

God Bless you always,

David

 



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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   From:  David (DavidABrown)    Feb-24 11:00 pm  
To:  ALL   (167 of 167)  
 
  773.167 in reply to 773.166  
 
Hi to everyone.

 

It has been several hours without a reply on this post and therefore I think it is a good opportunity to close this topic for discussion.

 

If the topic needs to be continued please start a new topic. 

 

I am not a fan of long topics as most of the postings get ignored while people skip to the last postings in long topic threads.

 

God Bless you,
David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org




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Edited 2/25/2004 2:02:15 AM ET by David (DAVIDABROWN) 
  
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